Glass Bedding Question

L

longshank

New member
I have a Remington 700 in 280 with a medium contour stainless barrel in an H-S Precision stock. I had it glass bedded by a very reputable gunsmith. They bedded the action and about 3-4" of the barrel channel (nearest the action) and the remainder there forward is free floated (I checked it with a piece of paper). I haven't shot it since I got it back, and that will be the real test. Any thoughts on this? I always thought the action should be glass bedded and never the barrel itself. Any thoughts will be greatly appreciated.
 
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Some bed only up to the lug. Others bed just forward to the the bell of the barrel. Others go further like your gunsmith did. As long as it is just the thick part it should be just fine. The reason for freefloating a barrel is so that it can resonate freely without touching the stock. The base of the barrel needs to resonate far less than the middle and the middle resonates less than the muzzle end.
 
I don't know of any high-scoring/tiny-grouping competition bolt action rifle winning matches and setting records that has any bedding touching the barrel. As the barrel heats up, more pressure's put on its contact area with the bedding beneath it. While the accuracy difference is small, the best marksmen with the best rifles and ammo can detect it. Its pressure also changes with ambient temperature and humidity causing the stock material to expand or contract. That hardened epoxy is now part of the stock, isn't it???? Therefore, the barrel's not free floating; only partially free floating. Doesn't the barrel go from the receiver all the way to the muzzle?

A lot of 'smiths think it's needed to support the barrel relieving the barrel's hard pressure against the receiver at the bottom. Folks in the above paragraph don't think that's an issue; their results prove them right.

Grind it out is my suggestion.

Nor do I think a piece of .006" thick paper's enough clearance to the barrel to prevent the fore end from bending enough to touch it. Resting the fore end atop something on a bench then leaning down on the stock to shoot it usually makes the fore end bend up enough to touch the barrel; it's only got .007" of movement to do that. At least 1/16th inch is needed, more for flimsy fore ends. Bench your rifle, shoulder it and get in position, then have someone slide a sheet of paper between the barrel and fore end. Or squeeze the fore end tip against the barrel and see how little pressure it takes to bend the tip against the barrel starting out with only .007" clearance.
 
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Click on below and picture of my 280AI

http://mail.aol.com/38135-111/aol-6...ent.aspx?uid=29047424&folder=OldMail&partId=7

That rifle action is bedded also has pillars and is bedded forward of the recoil lug under the chamber and free floated forward of that. I have all mine done that way.

I would shoot the rifle first and you didn't mention why you had that rifle bedded but if it was to improve something see if it did that.

Click on below and picture of my 243AI bedded like the above rifle in a H&S stock

http://mail.aol.com/38135-111/aol-6...ent.aspx?uid=29047424&folder=OldMail&partId=4

Well good luck
 
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There is a difference in gauging accuracy. One is measuring groups, which you'll see in bench rest shooting. The other is poi matching poa every shot, for the first couple shots. One school of though is to bed the barrel so you have constant pressure on a cold bore shot (ie, no "first round flyers) but you'll have a waundering zero as the barrel heats up. Bench rest shooters can warm their barrels with sighting shots, but you really can't do that with a hunting rifle.

Fully floating a barrel is easier and cheaper than properly bedding one.

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/2004/03/01/understanding-barrel-bedding/

You really don't see it done much anymore though. Problem is, people get hung up on GROUPS instead of remembering that with the first shot being accurate, you don't need 4 more.
 
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semi problomatic, I don't disagree with you on cold bore shooting but you have to develop an good accurate load first and that comes from shooting groups.

Maybe you know someone who can do that just with one rd I sure can't.
 
Sure you can. You cold-bore every shot. Just like you were going to do if you were hunting. I try to treat each rifle when developing a load the way I'd use it in the field. My 6.5 creedmoor is a target rifle. I do 5 shot strings with minimal time and no cleanings between groups. My .308 I cold bore shot with 2 minutes or longer between shots and a bore-snake down the barrel every time.

To me, a hunting rifle is not accurate with a .5 moa group if the first two rounds arn't counted and are considered flyers. I immediately discount any article's accuracy rating of a hunting rifle if they use fouling shots and shoot their groups back-to-back.

Either way, I'm not judging anyone, or comparing bedding jobs, I was just showing why someone might bed the barrel of a rifle.

Oh, I have to add: my 6.5 is a savage max-1 with aluminium bedding block, med contour barrel and free floated. My .308 is a weatherby vanguard with a light contour barrel and "pressure button" built into the flimsy forearm. Eventually I plan on putting the weatherby in a richards microfit stock. Quilted maple in the frontier sportster.... But I'm headed off topic...the .308 is what got me looking into bedded barrels. I was having problems developing a load for it and was frustrated, thought the non floated barrel was the problem and began looking at ways to fix it.
 
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Semi - I almost agree with you. I also cold-bore sight all my rifles. The only difference in my technique is that I clean the bores only once each year, then shoot several fouling shots before sighting in. After cold bore sighting in, they don't get cleaned again until the next season when I do the whole cycle again.
 
Semi, would you believe that hundreds of competitors in some matches do not get sighters and they shoot from 3 positions at ranges from 100 to 600 yards shooting 10 or 20 shots one per minute a bit less, 10 rounds down range in a minute shooting rapid fire and never have bullet impact change as their barrels heat up and their rifles shoot as accurate as benchrest rigs, with barrels totally free floated and don't touch anything except the receiver?

I thought that article on bedding from Rifle Shooter Magazine was interesting. Especially when in the 1950's epoxy bedding of match rifles replaced precision inletting for receivers made rifles and their ammo shoot accurate enough that the decades old method of pressure from the stock's fore end to the barrel helped get better accuracy, was tossed aside by folks shooting the best scores with totally free floating barrels.

There are still folks who believe otherwise and partially or full contact bed their barrels, but I don't know of any whose rifles shoot no worse than 1/4 MOA through 200 yards like totally free floating barrels can produce. I think they're related to members of the FES.
 
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I just noticed something from the OP... He said med contour. I was picturing light contour hunting rifle this whole time... Whole reason I'd brought up my rifles and hunting in post 9....*sigh*. Had I managed to read all of the post...

You're talking about CMP matches, eh Mr. Bart? I almost believe it, but not really. Rules vary by clubs, some allow as many shots as you can fit into x minutes, some allow 5, some don't allow any...there's even rules for how to convert sighter shots into scored shots...and you get 35-40 sighters if you re enter a match...though that score isn't supposed to be counted. Bench rest accuracy is relative. I severly doubt any of them get rail gun precision, or light rifle precision... But then again "light" benchrest rifles can weigh what...17lbs? Who wants to shoot that standing?? But I do see what you mean. And of course, no rule applies to every rifle, every type of rifle, etc. I was just giving an example of why it may have been done.
 
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No, semi-, NRA matches with bolt action rifles. Light, medium or heavy barrels. Rifles weigh 9 to 13 pounds. Metallic, aperture sights.
 
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Sighting Shots—In Registered Tournaments, in which courses of fire are used that are listed under Rule 17.5, the sighting shots specified must be allowed.
(a) Limited Sighting Shots—When limited sighting shots are allowed (see Rules 10.1.8 14.10 (b) (3) and 17.5) coaching will not be allowed.
(b) Unlimited Sighting Shots—When unlimited sighting shots are allowed the competitor may change rifles, and/or sights and receive coaching, before, but not after firing the first shot for record. No additional time will be allowed. In courses of fire described in Rule 17.5(y) and (z) and the 800 yard stage of the Palma Course (Rule 17.5(ac)), unlimited sighting shots are allowed. See Rule 8.2(a) for time limitations.
(c) In slow fire stages of matches, where sighters are allowed, the shooters may or may not take their sighters, but must tell their scorer if they are not going to take sighters.
(d) In rapid fire stages or matches, any sighting shots not fired during the time allowed for sighters will be recorded as misses (in the space reserved for sighting shots). See Section 8 for time allowance.

I know we've drifted a bit off topic, but I'm curious as to what you're refering to....those are the rules from the NRA high power rifle competition rule book...
 
I have had very good results bedding the recoil lug and 1"-2" beyond it with the remainder of the barrel having at the minimum 1/16" clearance all around.
 
Semi, many NRA and CMP high power matches shooting the National Match Course in 4- or 6- person team matches, no sighters are allowed at any range for any stage. Every round fired counts. What you put in print only refers to matches allowing sighters but exceptions are mentioned. Sighting shots are only allowed when the match program states they can be shot.

The operative words in what you posted are "where/when sighters are allowed" and those not allowing sighters are what I referred to.

Awaiting the your answer to the question I asked earlier. . . .
 
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"Semi, would you believe that hundreds of competitors in some matches do not get sighters and they shoot from 3 positions at ranges from 100 to 600 yards shooting 10 or 20 shots one per minute a bit less, 10 rounds down range in a minute shooting rapid fire and never have bullet impact change as their barrels heat up and their rifles shoot as accurate as benchrest rigs, with barrels totally free floated and don't touch anything except the receiver?"

^^^^ that question?

Sure, I believe it. Why not? Never said it couldn't happen.

There is a guy at work today telling me his out of the box .223 bolt action shooting 55 grain hornady ballistic tips has a group at 200 yards you can cover with a 30-06 rim. I believe him too. No reason not to.

The OP asked if anyone had any opinions as to why a gunsmith would bed past the recoil lug. I gave one. I did not say every rifle in the world does x y or z. I didn't say the gunsmith was right, wrong, or baby jesus. I don't know the gunsmith, I've never seen the gun and I wasn't there when the action was bedded. No one here has any clue as to why the gunsmith did what he did. Since the OP hasn't shot the rifle we have no idea of the effect it's going to have on accuracy. I honestly missed the med contour part and was thinking it was a light weight barrel (the only one I would consider bedding) because some need a pressure point to get decent accuracy, like mine. If you asked another question I can't find it.
 
No one here has any clue as to why the gunsmith did what he did?

I do have a clue. He thinks it's the best way to get best accuracy with that barreled action in that stock. There's hundreds of them in the USA who think that way and thousands of rifle shooters thinking the same thing.

An out of the box .223 bolt action shooting 55 grain hornady ballistic tips has a group at 200 yards you can cover with a 30-06 rim? "a group" That's once. That happens. If it happens 50% of the time, the other 50% of the groups are larger; often much larger. I've had 3 shot holes touching each other at 600 yards using service rifle sights. Once. Both instances are meaningless info regarding the point at hand.
 
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You *believe* you know. Unless someone asks the gunsmith no one will really know.

What rifles do what at what competitions doesn't really have any relevance.

What rules apply to which matches bear no relevance.

But you *know* it's trying to support pressure against the reciever... What if instead it's trying to stop forearm flex and maintain the rest of the barrel's free floating. As you said, a sheet of paper is not enough clearance. The h-s is made of fiberglass over foam core, so inletting isn't really an option. The bedding block ends at the recoil lug. So what if the gunsmith noticed the barrel wasn't free floating due to flex and was simply trying to stiffen the forearm with bedding material and not offsetting the heavy weight put on the reciever? Do you still *know* why someone else did what they did, or do you just believe you do?

OP call the gunsmith and ask.
 
What rifles do what at what competitions doesn't really have any relevance?

Well, it proves what does and does not work in making rifles shoot repeatably to the same point on target.

Most 'smiths know that any contact by the barrel with anything causes it to bounce away from it as the bullet's going through the hole in it. Barrels wiggle in all directions while the bullet goes through them; more in some axes than others. And different amounts of pressure change the amounts of bounce off the barrel will go. Any solid filler between the stock's fore end and the barrel transfers anything touching the fore end directly to the barrel. And nobody holds the fore end with the same amount of pressure nor direction for all shots fired.
 
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