Gibbs M1903A4? How rare are these?

K

Kimio

New member
As the subject says, I'm wondering these guns are super rare these days or something.

About four years ago Tim at Military Arms Channel did a review on these rifles, and to my knowledge, they were a limited manufacture item only (due to limited number of receivers?)

I've always wanted a Springfield, but if I were to get one, I wouldn't want to worry about hurting its collectible status by firing it.

This rifle seemed to be right up my alley. Problem is, I can't seem to find them, even on gun broker.

If possible, I'd want to get one with and without a scope. Anyone have some suggestions on where else I can go to look for one of these rifles and perhaps what the going rate is for one? Last I saw one was about a year or two ago, and the person wanted a little over 1k for a sniper variant which seemed a little steep (but if it's due to their rarity, I can sort of understand the pricing)
 
There were only 29,964 M1903A4 rifles made, all by Remington. They were marked as M1903A3's but the receiver markings were offset so the model and serial number could be read with the scope mount base in place. (The model and maker was offset to the left, the serial number to the right.)

There are a few rifles around actually marked as M1903A4 with the markings in the normal middle position. They are fakes; the number "3" was welded over and a "4" stamped in that position.

There were some M1903A4 rifles offered for sale through DCM c. 1963/4, but it is a question how many, if any, were sold with the scopes. The sale announcement was to be made in January, 1964, but after the events of November, 1963, the scopes were removed and broken up on the orders of the Secretary of the Army (probably on the orders of the President); the rifles were later sold without scopes. A few scopes escaaped, but the original scopes for those rifles are very rare.

Later, some companies, including Navy Arms (Gibbs) sold worked over M1903A3's, using clever wording to make the buyer believe the rifles were original M1903A4's. They are not.

Jim
 
Thanks for the clarification there. Honestly, even if the scope is a reproduction, I don't really mind.

I'm not really looking for a rifle that is an authentic sniper variant of the Springfield. This would be more of a rifle to just have fun with and functions to fit the part.

I would like a rifle that at least "looks" the part if that makes any sense. So an A3 with a period correct re-production optic would suit my needs just fine I feel.
 
as jim pointed out the gibbs rifles were all forgeries, but for $1000 you ended up with a fairly faithful repruction during a time when originals were selling for $4000 and up, now I think they've jumped another $1000 for the lower end. I ended up with an original receiver but had been rebarreled with an A3 national match barrel. I rebuilt it myself but chose modern glass over the cheap repro glass that gibbs used. apparently the turrets were reversed so you actually had to mount the scopes at a 90 degree angle for the adjustments to work, or something to that effect from what I read in a magazine writeup on them. I was curious about the gibbs rifles because they were selling some that had synthetic stocks but those didn't last long either. you are correct in that the gibbs rifles had no collectors value but shooting an original does nothing to diminish the value, in fact non firing examples sell for less than functioning ones so shooting is desired. I loved my 1903A4, I just got tired of dumping more and more money into the rebuild to make it more and more original, and originally sold it in favor of adding more oddities to the collection. I miss it because it was the only milsurp I could regularly reach out to 500 meters with and still hit steel.
 
Honestly, even if the scope is a reproduction, I don't really mind.

I'm the same way, I don't mind and would even prefer a modern scope on BOTH the 1903 and M-1...

Think my primary reason is that I'm of an age where my eyesight is beginning to go down. Left eye vision is still better than 20/20 but right eye vision is down to the point a small aperture sight is very hard to use.

Buying these rifles with scopes would allow me to use them for many more years...

T.
 
pretty much. my recommendation would be to find one that still has the military stock, but has been drilled and tapped, usually can be found for $500 and then just mount whatever glass you want. I took a badly bubba'd 1903 MK1 and turned it into a faux A4 out of a stack of parts that were leftover after my rebuild was finished. both were functionally the same, one just looked a lot closer to the real deal and shot much better.
100_1490.jpg
 
How hard or expensive would it be to get one drilled and tapped if the rifle doesn't already have that done to it?
 
How hard or expensive would it be to get one drilled and tapped if the rifle doesn't already have that done to it?
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The last one I had done was 10 bucks per hole but that was several years ago.
 
Later, some companies, including Navy Arms (Gibbs) sold worked over M1903A3's, using clever wording to make the buyer believe the rifles were original M1903A4's. They are not.
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Gibbs' 03A4s are junk, IMO. Many of the later Gibbs A4s were built off drill rifles and VFW beaters that were essentially wall-hangers, ... rebarrelled and suitably re-parked for sale, of course. :rolleyes:

Folks refer to these Gibbs 03A4 as "clones," but that's generously overstating it.

The "clone" I have is about as close to all original USGI as you can get without a $5K price tag attached - to include: the correct receiver, Redfield mount, rings, and screws, trigger unit, the stock and all related metal, etc. The original barrel was shot-out and pitted, so it was replaced with a Criterion. The scope is an old Lyman 3x All-American, which is technically period-correct, but was not the USGI Lyman scope issued for the service 03A4s.

It's looks awesome and shoots better than I can hold, although the 3x magnification for me is a limitation at distance ... But, as they say, "better shooter, better result."

:cool:
 
Hmm so should I just steer clear of these rifles and look for an "original" instead?

Sure seems like the Gibbs rifles have a bad rep according to ya'll.
 
like I said, I wouldn't recommend original since there are less then 30k in existence and they cost more than my daily driver is worth. however there are plenty of serviceable guns that were drilled and tapped, and thus have lost their collectability, but which can still look a lot like the real deal, and still shoot and weigh about the same. the gibbs rifles, especially the late ones were so abused before their rebuilds, that I probably wouldn't want to pull the trigger on one.

assuming this one is not a low serial number rifle, it might make a good donor, but since I'm a purist, I would probably recommend searching a little harder for one that's already been drilled and tapped so another collector isn't removed from circulation.

here's a very convincing fake. the serial and manufacterer are covered up by the scope mount yet the listing claims it's an original military issue rifle. it claims it was converted to an A4 post war but also claims that the barrel matches the receiver but the front sight post hole is parkerized which it would not be if it was originally made as an A3. also the parkerizing where the front sight should be on an A3 looks much fresher than the rest of the barrel. the original redfield mounts that I've seen have all been parkerized, but this one is blued as well, which is how all of the current production redfield mounts ship. I'm willing to call fake, but for the price, it would be better than a gibbs rifle in my opinion.
 
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Well, if I were to get a rifle like that, that I knew was mostly original or still retained its collectors value, I'd not do anything to it. Wonder how hard it would be to find me a reproduction stock and de-sporterize one of these rifles.

I see a few sportorized rifles on Gun broker that appear reasonably priced that I could go and drop a scope on them without much fear I think.
 
it's not difficult at all, they require very little fitting, you're usually just stuck tracking down all the small parts from ebay or gunpartscorp.
 
Truth be told, I'd want one with just iron sights like that and one that is scoped, since my eyes are already pretty bad (20/400-500 without corrective lenses and only getting worse) so having some sort of scope really helps when I'm trying to aim down range.
 
Well, if you want a 1903A4 replica as a shooter, and you are willing to spend 1,695.00 before shipping and transfer fees, just buy a Creedmoor: https://www.creedmoorsports.com/prod...terfire-rifles .
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Yeah, I'd look at Creedmore Sports, or maybe try James River Armory, before sinking your hard-earned $$$ into a Gibbs. I believe JRA used to have some Criterion barreled 1903s and 03A4s. They were on Commercial Row at the Natl Matches at Camp Perry a year or two ago. Give them a call and see what they have, if anything ...

It's always sound purchasing policy not to buy a "problem" rifle.

Buy right once, and cry not at all. ;)
 
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@Agtman Oh no, don't get me wrong, I'm willing to pay for a quality product, I wasn't aware the Gibbs rifles had problems is all. Didn't do enough research apparently.
 
You want an original 'A4 you can often find them on the CMP Auction site.

You want a shooter you can shoot in the CMP Vintage Sniper Matches Gibbs work. You see a lot of them on the range and over all they are good shooters.

Or you can build one which is the way I went. Any 'a3 action will work. Though originals were Remington, Smith Corona 'a3s converted to A4s are legal in Per the CMP rules if one picks a scope that was used on the A4s or a replica there of.

I've tired several scopes, I settled on the Leatherwood Hi-Lux #: M73G4, a replica of the original m73, it has cross hairs instead of the post, which works better for me.

The legal (per cmp rules) scopes are limited to 2.5 X. If I'm not mistaken that is the scope that comes with the Gibbs, or the guns sold by Creedmoor.

I could be wrong there.

Anyway, I'm too old to worry about collectors, I want to shoot my rifles, I'll let my kids and grandkids worry about the collector values.

If you want a collector, you're gonna have to pay, if you want a shooter, you have several options, Gibbs, Creedmoor, or build your own.

I'd choose the latter. Buy an old bubbed or sporterized M1903a3, get a barrel and stock from CMP, and hit Midway up for the Leatherwood Hi-Lux #: M73G4.

Load up some 168 A-Max to about 2600-2700 fps, get good zeros at 300 and 600 yards and attend some CMP Vintage sniper matches.

A heck of a lot of fun and you'd be surprised what these rifles can do.

2016 OK City Games, Vintage sniper match with the above set up. It was a pick up team, meaning I found a guy who also didn't have a partner, we teamed up. He was shooting the same setup, I beat him by an X. We'll do better at the 2017 OK Games.

Vintage%20Sniper%20Match.JPG
 
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