getting a flame or flash out of the end of the barrel ?
- Thread starter rebs
- Start date
Somewhere in time between 1910 and 1920 a picture was taking while the photographer was standing behind the blast of a bullet leaving the barrel. He won an award for the photograph, months later the military took an interest in the picture, their reactions was something like "NO WAY!" and then? They settled down and examined the picture. for months and then decided everything they thought happened when the trigger was pulled was wrong.
I have a visible flame that follows the bullet on ever round I fire. What do I want to see? I want a perfect gas exit pattern, I do not want to see more flash on one side than the other. AND, we all know we do not see the flame in the daylight.
F. Guffey
I have a visible flame that follows the bullet on ever round I fire. What do I want to see? I want a perfect gas exit pattern, I do not want to see more flash on one side than the other. AND, we all know we do not see the flame in the daylight.
F. Guffey
Muzzle flash is the result of less then optimum barrel length. The "perfect" barrel length would allow the powder to burn 100% AND allow the expanding gases to expend all their force to the bullet.
That dosent happen with ANY cartridge. Some cartridge/barrel lengths are better then others.
A 24" barreled 223 would flash less then a 16"...with the same ammo.
Different powder burns at different rates. So a change of powder can reduce some of the flash. Some ammo companies add flash retardant to their powder, further reducing flash.
If you just grabbed some ammo off the shelf of your LGS and are running a shorter barrel....expect some flash. Try a 7" AR shooting at night
That dosent happen with ANY cartridge. Some cartridge/barrel lengths are better then others.
A 24" barreled 223 would flash less then a 16"...with the same ammo.
Different powder burns at different rates. So a change of powder can reduce some of the flash. Some ammo companies add flash retardant to their powder, further reducing flash.
If you just grabbed some ammo off the shelf of your LGS and are running a shorter barrel....expect some flash. Try a 7" AR shooting at night
603Country
New member
I get a serious muzzle flash from my 223 (the first barrel, 22 inch) when I shoot the 40 gr Nosler over a max load of H335. I get much less muzzle flash from the 260, 270, or 220.
Volumetrically, the lesser flash from the .260 and .270 seems to make sense. The "combustion chamber" is larger. The volume in which the powder is burned is larger, suggesting more complete burning, even with very large powder charges.
The .220 Swift kinda baffles me, and I don't even have a plausible guess. I seem to recall that the .220 Swifts of old would burn out their barrels (accuracy would go way south) in as little as 300 rounds (suggesting very high combustion temps and, of course, very high muzzle velocities) , but I surmise that this is no longer the case.
The .220 Swift kinda baffles me, and I don't even have a plausible guess. I seem to recall that the .220 Swifts of old would burn out their barrels (accuracy would go way south) in as little as 300 rounds (suggesting very high combustion temps and, of course, very high muzzle velocities) , but I surmise that this is no longer the case.
603Country
New member
It's odd that folks could imagine that a 220 would burn a barrel out in no time at all, when a 22-250 wouldn't. But, some folks apparently did believe it. My first 220 was a pre-64 Model 70, which to my surprise had a stainless barrel. It was worth more to sell than to keep, so I next bought a Ruger 77V from a New Mexico cowboy that had the bull barrel cut to 20 inches. I called it "Shorty" and shot it a lot over a decade or so. Waaay more than 300 rounds, and all loaded hot. Even when I had to start chasing the lands, the gun shot great. Finally the lands got too far away and I rebarreled it and have shot it for decades. Shoots great. Just don't get carried away with trying to machine gun a prairie dog town with it, and it'll last a very long time.
The 223 I mentioned is getting a new barrel (just cause), and the barrel is going to be shorter than the first one. I suppose I'll still get that impressive fireball out the barrel. I always assumed that it was the H335 that was the cause of the big flash.
The 223 I mentioned is getting a new barrel (just cause), and the barrel is going to be shorter than the first one. I suppose I'll still get that impressive fireball out the barrel. I always assumed that it was the H335 that was the cause of the big flash.
I confess little experience with either the .220 Swift or .22-250, or the care and feeding thereof. I merely recount the experiences, as best I remember them, from those who DID have considerable experience with the Swift. Hey, I LIKE the .220 Swift! I wish I DID own one!
But I suggest the shorter barrel lives reported back then (early 60's to early/mid 70's) MIGHT have been the result of less-than-judicious loading practices with powders which were likely technologically inferior and hotter burning than powders appearing a decade later.
AND, if memory serves, there's a roughly inverse-square relationship between barrel life and projectile velocities (invoking ceteris paribus, here). If a barrel has a median life of 36,000 rounds while launching projectiles at 2000 f/s, its median life while launching the same projectiles at 2400 f/s would be around 25,000 rounds. At 3000 f/s, the barrel life would decrease to @ 16,000 rounds. At 4000 f/s, the median barrel would be around 9000 rounds.
The advertised muzzle velocity of the Swift was something like 4110 f/s. For the .22-250's muzzle velocity (if memory serves) hovered around 3750 f/s. The math suggests that, if a Swift barrel burns out (prints groups 20 or 25% larger than when new) at (say) 500 rounds, the .22-250 should do the same at around 600.
I guess the rate at which a rifle barrel burns out could also be clouded by how much shooting the owner does with the rifle, year over year. If the owner shoots a box of cartridges per season, the barrels may outlast the owner. As the rounds shot/year increases, differences in barrel life may become more evident, especially if the ratios between the two are uneven.
But I suggest the shorter barrel lives reported back then (early 60's to early/mid 70's) MIGHT have been the result of less-than-judicious loading practices with powders which were likely technologically inferior and hotter burning than powders appearing a decade later.
AND, if memory serves, there's a roughly inverse-square relationship between barrel life and projectile velocities (invoking ceteris paribus, here). If a barrel has a median life of 36,000 rounds while launching projectiles at 2000 f/s, its median life while launching the same projectiles at 2400 f/s would be around 25,000 rounds. At 3000 f/s, the barrel life would decrease to @ 16,000 rounds. At 4000 f/s, the median barrel would be around 9000 rounds.
The advertised muzzle velocity of the Swift was something like 4110 f/s. For the .22-250's muzzle velocity (if memory serves) hovered around 3750 f/s. The math suggests that, if a Swift barrel burns out (prints groups 20 or 25% larger than when new) at (say) 500 rounds, the .22-250 should do the same at around 600.
I guess the rate at which a rifle barrel burns out could also be clouded by how much shooting the owner does with the rifle, year over year. If the owner shoots a box of cartridges per season, the barrels may outlast the owner. As the rounds shot/year increases, differences in barrel life may become more evident, especially if the ratios between the two are uneven.
Marco Califo
New member
I use WC844 (surplus 335) and get muzzle flash, AKA the 3 foot fireball, with most bullet weights. I also notice the Axis sporter barrel gets very hot, very quickly.
NO way there is a flame coming out of the muzzle 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KhlQYU4TIE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbXdghpxlrw
I use the Smith Enterprise vortex flash hider below
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxSPgn0e1z8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KhlQYU4TIE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbXdghpxlrw
I use the Smith Enterprise vortex flash hider below
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxSPgn0e1z8
Can someone explain this to me? I have never tried this but am curious.
If you have muzzle flash from unburned powder and you keep reducing your loads to the point there is no unburned powder then why would your velocity go down? In other words if the powder is not burned then how does a higher load contribute to higher velocities?
If you have muzzle flash from unburned powder and you keep reducing your loads to the point there is no unburned powder then why would your velocity go down? In other words if the powder is not burned then how does a higher load contribute to higher velocities?
maverick79, 100% efficiency? This reminds me of a thread started by someone that thought the bullet sealed the barrel and nothing got by it. That one just locked-um up or drove them to the curb. The picture I was referring to earlier proved there was all kinds of things going on that had never been considered.
Visible smoke, smokeless? I have flames that follow the bullet, I can not see the flames in daylight, then there are barrels that shred at the muzzle, I am not the fan of exceeding the ability of the barrel to exceed its limit.
F. Guffey
Marco Califo
New member
Powder burning in a confined space is NOT a linear push.
Peak pressure before the bullet leaves the barrel is a major factor of velocity. Expanding gases push more at greater pressure.
More powder increases peak pressure. Confined powder burning takes, lets say 5 milli-seconds, is suddenly uncorked at 3 milli-seconds. That powder is already well lit and burning, pushing hard. You get 2 milli-seconds of flash - flame chasing the bullet.
I used milliseconds as a relative reference point. 5, 3 and 2 are not actual measurements, but a theoretical example to illustrate the physics of flash.
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Marco Califo
New member
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"...Muzzle flash is the result of less then optimum barrel length..." Ever shoot at night or late in the day in late season? There's a muzzle flash with any barrel length. How big it is depends on the length.
One of the guys I shot with had what he called his 'cleaner load'. .357 jacketed loaded really hot. Forget what powder. Anyway, it'd give a flash like a flash bulb in the range.
One of the guys I shot with had what he called his 'cleaner load'. .357 jacketed loaded really hot. Forget what powder. Anyway, it'd give a flash like a flash bulb in the range.
Yes. We did some shooting at dusk at the Gunsite 270 class I took, and the same exact load fired in 18", 20" and 24" barrels produced dramatically different amounts of muzzle flash from white basketball, to orange softball, to a reddish-orange over-sized candle flame. In a 22" tube with a Vortex flash suppressor, there was barely any visible light except looking sideways into the slots in the suppressor. I was impressed by its effectiveness.
The reason this is possible is the flame and its appearance are a complex phenomenon. First, it needs to be understood that the combustion of nitrocellulose is oxygen deficient. That is, the molecule doesn't contain enough oxygen to oxidize all the carbon and hydrogen and nitrogen released when it breaks down. This is why you have carbon left behind in the bore and why there is unburned nitrogen and carbon dust and, most reactive, hydrogen in the gas that escapes. The hydrogen burns fastest and hottest at the surface of the muzzle blast sphere as it meets the additional oxygen in air.
How bright the fireball is depends on the exit temperature of the gas and the speed with which the muzzle pressure pushes it out to meet a larger amount of oxygen. This affects how fast it burns and whether or not it can heat the carbon particles enough to glow incandescent white or just get it to orange or dull red (less muzzle pressure and temperature; meeting the oxygen more gradually).
For a load of RL15 under a 175 grain MatchKing (M118LR) you find a muzzle pressure of about 10,800 psi for an 18" barrel and about 7600 psi for a 24" barrel. It doesn't seem like a huge enough difference to account for big white fireball vs dim oversize candle flame until you remember the absolute temperatures are roughly proportional to the pressure difference in this short time frame. That makes a big difference to the incandescence. It's also why flash hiders work. They let the initial muzzle blast bleed out more gradually and, in the case of the Vortex, help it cool by bleeding off energy put into spinning it before meeting a large amount of oxygen in air.
Maverick,
Smokeless powders will actually burn less completely at lower pressure, so reducing the load usually increases the unburned powder. At ranges frequented by target shooters firing lots of low pressure loads, you can sweep up the dust on the floor and light it and watch it flare up. Lots of unburned powder in it.
The reason this is possible is the flame and its appearance are a complex phenomenon. First, it needs to be understood that the combustion of nitrocellulose is oxygen deficient. That is, the molecule doesn't contain enough oxygen to oxidize all the carbon and hydrogen and nitrogen released when it breaks down. This is why you have carbon left behind in the bore and why there is unburned nitrogen and carbon dust and, most reactive, hydrogen in the gas that escapes. The hydrogen burns fastest and hottest at the surface of the muzzle blast sphere as it meets the additional oxygen in air.
How bright the fireball is depends on the exit temperature of the gas and the speed with which the muzzle pressure pushes it out to meet a larger amount of oxygen. This affects how fast it burns and whether or not it can heat the carbon particles enough to glow incandescent white or just get it to orange or dull red (less muzzle pressure and temperature; meeting the oxygen more gradually).
For a load of RL15 under a 175 grain MatchKing (M118LR) you find a muzzle pressure of about 10,800 psi for an 18" barrel and about 7600 psi for a 24" barrel. It doesn't seem like a huge enough difference to account for big white fireball vs dim oversize candle flame until you remember the absolute temperatures are roughly proportional to the pressure difference in this short time frame. That makes a big difference to the incandescence. It's also why flash hiders work. They let the initial muzzle blast bleed out more gradually and, in the case of the Vortex, help it cool by bleeding off energy put into spinning it before meeting a large amount of oxygen in air.
Maverick,
Smokeless powders will actually burn less completely at lower pressure, so reducing the load usually increases the unburned powder. At ranges frequented by target shooters firing lots of low pressure loads, you can sweep up the dust on the floor and light it and watch it flare up. Lots of unburned powder in it.
Average Joe
New member
You should see the flash from my Mosin , the flash almost reaches the target...