German Luger and Moral Struggle

But Nazi? No. They were systematic mass serial killers.
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I don't follow that thinking, TBH.

A Luger is a no-no, because of the crimes of the regime that commissioned its design and subsequently used it?

Yet you don't seem to apply the same exclusion to Arisakas despite Japanese WWII prison camp and occupation war-crimes and I'm guessing you wouldn't baulk at owning a Mosin either despite the fact that Stalin killed waaaaaay more civilians than Hitler's 3rd Reich did...

:confused:
 
Pond, humans are complex beings. Emotion is as much a part of our dna as our ability to rationally analyze the data. That I, or anyone else is uncomfortable with Nazi weapons, or mimes, or subcompact automobiles may not make sense to you. It doesn't have to, and an explanation is not required.
 
I agree with lee n. field's take.
German issue Lugers are war trophies seized from a defeated enemy. They aren't going to kill any more of our men.
Quite respectable for the last several centuries.
 
and an explanation is not required.
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And yet an unsolicited explanation was given.

Indeed, other examples of pretty distasteful regimes were given yet not included in the "boycott".
And I don't follow the thinking in that explanation as it was given... hence my observation.

If the post had been "I'm not buying ex-Nazi weapons because I don't like the Nazis", I'd probably not have thought on it in the same way, if at all.
 
I have a few WWII PO8 bring backs. One early war with matching numbers and =the other a late war with non-matching numbers. Both are known to have taken US Lives. My Uncle brought them back and traded them to my Dad fr a couple Japanese swords. I keep them for the engineering design and works of art. Also a big plus is they are great shooters and very enjoyable. Like many have said everyone establishes their own beliefs and attitudes. You need to look inside yourself to decide what yours need to be. We can share our ideas but ultimately it's up to you. By the way if you have a P08 you can't live with give me a call, I could probably help you get rid of it ... :D
 
Unless your guns were personally purchased when new, over the counter, you don't know if any of them, regardless of make or model, may have taken the life of someone else.
 
I have several WWI and WWII weapons in my collection all captured, which include a 1903 rifle and a 1911, 2 great uncles fought in WWI on the German side and immigrated to the U.S. in the early 1920s. They are all part of history of the world and my family.
 
My dad was a WW2 front line soldier who exchanged gunfire with German troops. He brought home a nice Luger that was taken from a German officer. Who knows who might have been shot with that pistol, but it never bothered my dad keeping it around the house.
 
I am looking for a way to view my ownership of this gun without disrespecting the life of the soldier or soldiers that it may have taken.
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We won. They lost. We get to play with their stuff.
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I think this pretty much covers it. :D

One way to look at it is that these are the weapons (and gear, flags, uniforms etc) of the DEFEATED ENEMY!

They are war trophies, taken from the vanquished foe, and displayed to honor those who did it. It's as old a custom as civilization.

I understand your emotional response to Nazi ideology and history, but by transferring THEIR EVIL to the tools they happened to use, you are falling for one of the older, and bigger lies ever told.

The idea that THINGS can be evil. It is a very old idea, codified into various laws from the middle ages onwards (and likely before in some places).

IF something harmed someone, it was evil, and forfeit to the Crown, or the Crown's designated representative. It's worked very well for the benefit of the elite and nobility for the last few centuries, but it is, and always has been, at its heart, a lie.

The Luger (Pistole Parabellum P.08) is the iconic handgun of IMPERIAL GERMANY. The Kaiser's Germany. WWI Germany.

Yes, the Nazis used them, made them and marked them, but they also stopped making them in the middle of the war (42) As already noted, the primary standard was the Walther P.38. Lugers were a secondary standard, and they also used weapons from Occupied nations as well.

Every evil leering Nazi officer or Gestapo man having a Luger is a Hollywood fantasy. Iconic, but not reality.

Another way to look at it is that "THIS Luger/Mauser98k/P.38 etc, won't kill any Allied troops or innocent civilians while I have it!!"

If you are serious about wanting a Luger that you can be certain didn't do anything evil to anyone, it can take a bit of searching, but they can be had. I have one, bought brand new in the box, stainless steel, and made in TEXAS!

And yes, it is absolutely a Luger. And in the classic P.08 pattern.
 
Another way to think about this is that all such weapons are reminders of a history we'd do well not to forget. My father grew up under the Nazi regime and escaped from Germany in 1939; the stories he told me about his youth made that period very real to me. In the same way, my mother lived through the Blitz in London, and she gave me a vivid appreciation of what it's like to be a young mother and have bombs falling overhead every night.

As time passes, fewer and fewer people have the privilege of hearing this kind of living history from people who experienced its attendant horrors directly and who can convey the terror and suffering involved. Seeing and handling objects which were used during such times can be a bit of a substitute for this -- for me, at least, they make the history come alive in a way that a printed page or a TV documentary can't accomplish.

I'd say that the emotions stirred up by such objects, even including horror at the ways they may have been used, are part of the point of owning them; one can honor those feelings rather than shying away from them, and use them to reinforce lessons we need to remember and to teach to others.
 
This gun was taken off a German officer on the outskirts of Dachau that my father brought home.
What terrible things did this gun do and see. I know that my father was in Dachau on the day after it was liberated and till the day he died he wouldn’t talk about what he saw. I was there in 95 and it was shocking even then.
My now owning the gun doesn’t bother me at all.
What the gun means to me is that it reminds me of my father and the great people of this country, the great solders that fought and the heroes that died to stop this gun from taking more lives.
I take it out and his M1 Carbine every June 6 to put a couple of rounds down range. He’s no longer with us but it’s my way to say thanks for the life I have because of him and the guns he passed down.
If it bothers you to own a war trophy then don’t buy it,,, But I do think your being a little over the top on it.
Deaf Smith, your logic doesn’t make sense to me. You’re ok owning a gun that kills Americans. Japanese guns were ok because they were barbaric.
Yet the Nazi you won’t own one of their war trophies because they were mass killers.
Have you ever heard of the rape of Nanking?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre
You do realize that not all German soldiers were Nazi party members?
Many experts say that the number of Chinese killed by the Japanese during WW2 may have exceeded the number killed in the holocaust.
 

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Redlightrich said:
Then I began to search, and then SMACK it hit me.... This weapon may have taken the life or lives of US Soldiers! Gosh, I called my older brother, who collects wartime items, and asked his thoughts about my thought. He said, " yes Rich, that is what that gun was made for".. to kill allied troops. He then asked" what are you afraid of". I couldn't explain thoroughly, but I felt that I was then idolizing an object that goes against every bit of my being. Designed to harm the US and it's soldiers. PLEASE DON'T TAKE OFFENSE IF YOU OWN ONE!!!!!!!! I am not judging you. I don't think poorly of you. The truth is, if I didn't have a large family, which slowed down the ability to purchase this sooner, I would have several by now.
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You are wrong in your basic premise. The Luger was not designed to harm the U.S. or its soldiers. The Luger was designed and patented in 1898 and went into production in 1900. That's a full fourteen years before the beginning of WW1, and sixteen years before the U.S. entered WW1. In fact, it wasn't even made "to kill Allied troops," because the gun was designed when Germany wasn't at war and there was no cooperative groups of "Allies."

The Luger was designed to defend the carrier against his enemy, whoever that might be. That's what all military firearms are designed to do -- kill the enemy. A Civilian Marksmanship Program M1 Garand or M1 Carbine could very well have taken a life, or many lives, in WW2 or Korea. Should a prospective buyer who doesn't like killing therefore decline to buy a genuine military rifle (or carbine) because it might have taken a human life?
 
I understand your emotional response to Nazi ideology and history, but by transferring THEIR EVIL to the tools they happened to use, you are falling for one of the older, and bigger lies ever told.
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With all due respect, baloney! That I do not want to own things connected to the Nazis does not mean I am transferring their evil to the Luger, or flag, or any other artifact. I simply don't want anything connected to them. The artifacts are not evil. That doesn't mean that I want any of them. Why is that hard to understand?
 
"We won. They lost. We get to play with their stuff." (lee n. field)

This sums it up for me. I'm Jewish and I have a Luger, P38, Mausers, a G43, a Radom, and an Astra 600, all used by Germany in WWII. To me, all are symbols that we won and"get to play with their stuff", not to mention the fact that "they" are gone and my people are still here in spite of their strenuous efforts.
Every time I shoot them I utter a hearty FU to the Nazis.
YMMV
 
Designed to harm the US and it's soldiers.
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Nonsense. Lugers were designed around 1898 (updated in 1906 and 1908) and had nothing to do with US soldiers. They are beautifully made handguns with workmanship that is duplicated probably only in high end 1911s, Korths, etc. I don't collect Nazi Lugers, but only because I think the best ones were made prior to WWI.
 
anthropomorphism an·thro·po·mor·phism (ān'thrə-pə-môr'fĭz'əm)
n.
The attribution of human motivation, characteristics, or behavior to nonhuman organisms or inanimate objects.
 
Thank you all for the mostly thoughtful responses. Yes, it is an inanimate object. Yes it may have taken a life?
Someone did say something that made sense to me. I bought a used CZ 75 SPO1, I have no idea where that was, yet it causes me no anxiety.

For the record, I don't believe any gun or guns are evil, regardless of where they originated or their intended use. People can be evil, not objects.

In the end, I think I will appreciate the wartime relic in my safe. I will take it out, shoot it, and think of my dad, mom, aunts and uncles who all shared a piece of their life with me.


Thank you all for your input.

Kind regards

Rich
 
It has to be something you're comfortable with. To some collectors of historical items, they will not touch it if they have any reason to believe it has drawn blood. To others, that history makes it more valuable.

My logic is pretty much as follows: The act of killing another person is evil. The act of war is evil. Evil may not preclude necessity, and in fact the act of war and killing has driven much innovation in the course of human events.

We can't forget the equivalence also that any American arms that were in use during the war may have been used to kill another person as well. I for one am not of the opinion that a foot soldier for another country is inherently burdened with the acts of that country and they may have been simply fighting for the idea of protecting their homeland as many of our people were. So is owning a German weapon that may have killed an American any more inherently evil than owning an American weapon that may have killed a German soldier? That would depend on your views on patriotism and righteousness in war. To me, unless there is a specific and known historical context, I don't see much of a difference. You may feel differently.

Also consider that many of our common sporting arms are derived from arms designed to kill another man in war or defense. Even putting aside the obvious examples like the AK-47, how many common bolt action rifles today are based off of the Mauser which was made the way it was as a weapon of war? How many lever action rifles and revolvers?

Just my thoughts
 
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