gel testing 38spl cast hollow points

S

Shadow9mm

New member
So I did some get testing today with some of my hand loads. I don't want to list the bullet maker, but I have contacted them regarding the expansion to see if this is what was intended, it is not what I was hoping for.

I tested with 2 guns
Ruger LCP 1.87in at about 890fps
Ruger GP 00 6in at 980fps

Same load
Power Pistol 5.0g
148g round flat hollow point, listed specifically for 38spl velocities, but not 357 velocities.
winchester small rifle primers
heavy crimp

Both round punched holes straight through, no wound cavity, just straight line. with minimal expansion.

Upon a little more thinking. I am wondering if these were acting like a wad cutter. While not creating cavitation or a larger permanent wound like modern hollow points, the leading edge was cutting a hole the entire length rather than just slipping through.


Bullet from the 1.87in gun 890fps 14in of penetration

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Bullet from the 6in gun 980fps 11 inches of penetration

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And here is the gel test, snubbie on top 6in on bottom I did not get the best photo angles, the 2nd 38 is kind of over top of the first in the bottom block. the other wound track that shows a permanent cavity was a 124g federal HST factory load from a P365 and penetrated to 12in, since I am sure someone will ask.

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I think you have some mis conceptions on Cast and SD bullets.

Modern SD are jacketed and the intent is to expand the energy in a human being for maximum affect and not over penetration.

Lead was the only choice at one time, but its not THE choice now.

From what I am seeing is you have the perfect Bear load. Lots of penetrations, holding form and mainting a break down through bones ability.

That is the latest thinking in guide guns, 440 Marline with hard case bullets. You aren't going to kill a grizzly with a kill shot, you can break it down or created enough havoc with multiple shots to cripple it (then kill it)

What the bullet maker intends not a clue, but a cast bullet maker is not going to have the massive research needed to created a SD round and its possible it is just a cool looking offering that has no research behind it.
 
I'm curious what the hardness of these cast bullets are.

That's an aggressive looking hollow point and I would have expected better performance at 980 f/s.
 
Nick_C_S said:
I'm curious what the hardness of these cast bullets are.

That's an aggressive looking hollow point and I would have expected better performance at 980 f/s.
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I'm suspecting they were cast harder than intended. But at this point I am not sure. Hoping to hear back from the bullet maker after the weekend and see if this was the intended performance of the bullet.
 
RC20 said:
I think you have some mis conceptions on Cast and SD bullets.

Modern SD are jacketed and the intent is to expand the energy in a human being for maximum affect and not over penetration.

Lead was the only choice at one time, but its not THE choice now.

From what I am seeing is you have the perfect Bear load. Lots of penetrations, holding form and mainting a break down through bones ability.

That is the latest thinking in guide guns, 440 Marline with hard case bullets. You aren't going to kill a grizzly with a kill shot, you can break it down or created enough havoc with multiple shots to cripple it (then kill it)

What the bullet maker intends not a clue, but a cast bullet maker is not going to have the massive research needed to created a SD round and its possible it is just a cool looking offering that has no research behind it.
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I'm still learning in relation to cast bullets. However based on the design of the hollow point I was anticipating a better mushroom, and possibly some permanent wound cavity. both bullets just punched a hole straight through.

As far as bear, no way. While I agree the expansion would be adequate, 38spl is way too light for bear, and 11in of penetration out of my 6in is inadequate. while the shape with good penetration would be a good choice, not with this 38spl load.

I would consider pushing it harder in 357, but it lost 3in of penetration going about 100fps faster in the 6in gun. Also it is plain base lead, I would not want to push it over 1100fps. Not to mention I already loaded all I had....
 
Purely as an academic exercise, maybe try using silicone in the hp. For purely academic exercises, am partial to Permatex RTV sealant. Have gone to wfn 160 gn bullets for snub 38's at about 800 fps, which can lower pressure, hit to point of aim, increase control and insure adequate penetration. Also serve well for target bullets. Am old and strayed away from going to hot rounds trying for better mushrooms in small lighter pistols. Just an opinion
 
zeke said:
Purely as an academic exercise, maybe try using silicone in the hp. For purely academic exercises, am partial to Permatex RTV sealant. Have gone to wfn 160 gn bullets for snub 38's at about 800 fps, which can lower pressure, hit to point of aim, increase control and insure adequate penetration. Also serve well for target bullets. Am old and strayed away from going to hot rounds trying for better mushrooms in small lighter pistols. Just an opinion
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similar to the Hornady critical defense or Gold dot G2.... I will have to try that!
 
It helps to make sure there are no air bubbles, and it is flush to the tip of the bullet. A little messy, slow (takes some time to cure) and needs some clean up. Long before Hdy.
 
As far as bear, no way. While I agree the expansion would be adequate, 38spl is way too light for bear, and 11in of penetration out of my 6in is inadequate. while the shape with good penetration would be a good choice, not with this 38spl load.
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I was kidding, spiraled from hat to affect of hard lead.

Ergo, that same bullet can be used in 357 to 1500 fps probably. They are getting much better quality control of lead these days and you want the highest speed possible.

That looks like the synthetic grease on some of my lead bullets.

It takes a lot of engineering to get expansion right and a cast bullet maker is not going to have those resources. Part of it is a variance in velocity and getting it to mushroom over a wide range.
 
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reddog81 said:
What were the expanded diameters? The 980 FPS doesn’t look too bad.
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Sorry. Initially lost the 980, but I did find it late last night. Here are the diameters.

The 870 was
min 0.421
max 0.426

The 980 was
Min 0.511
Max 0.523
 
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Load hollow base wadcutters upside down. 700fps (or less) shoot an old refrigerator, penetration will be less than 50% (some of the rounds will punch through,,,) the ones that don't will flatten out to about the size of a quarter! :rolleyes:
 
The problem with commercial cast bullets is they consider 12 BHN bullets to be "soft", which they are compared to the 18 BHN bullets they also sell. Shown below is the expansion I get with my .38 Special +P cast bullet loads at 845fps (middle bullet) and 940fps (right bullet).

Don

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Nick,

Can't tell you the exact BHN number (probably about 7), but the alloy consists of 97 Pb/2.5 Sn/0.5 Sb. Big believer in low antimony and high tin alloys for sub-1000fps loads. Merry Christmas!

Don
 
As noted, Harder cast makes for deep penetration, ergo, Solids for Elephant or Cape Buss (and probably Hippo)

This seems to be a good discussion on the topic. Shades of Annealing. Not always obvious aspects

https://www.pennbullets.com/ReloadingTips/ReloadingTips.htm

some of the loading run 1600 fps. I ran some pretty hot one just to see in 9mm (1200 fps area as I recall, no issues, purely target. Simply not going to expand if hard enough (or suited) to run Jacketed velocity.
 
I previously posted a picture of a 45 colt hollow point from GT bullets that mushroomed perfectly when shot into water at 1000 fps. The other day I shot a subsonic 400 grain .458 Socom bullet around 1080fps into water and the petals sheared off and the base continued all the way through the 3 foot container. Not scientific by any means but it was odd that the same alloys had such different results from the same manufacturer.
 
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