G19 vs. Pit Bull

S

smith_6288

New member
Please bear with me as I lay the foundation for my question.

I was traveling to meet some people for lunch today. I was stopped at a light for about a minute when a large white truck pulled up next to me. When the light turned green we both took off, but he apparently either did not realize, or did not care that I was in the lane next to him, because he immediately started to move into my lane. I honked the horn to alert him to my presence, at which time he swirved back into his lane, and then started screaming at my out his window. I blew it off. He then began to swirv violently into and out of my lane. I attempted to speed up, slow down, change lanes, etc. I did all that I could to avoid a situation with this guy, even though I knew that if it came down to it I would easily beat him in a fight. I started to get my cell phone out so as to call the police and report the situation when he finally ran me into the center area of the road (no center divider but a large area marked by yellow lines that seperate the northbound from the southbound lanes). I dropped my phone and could not call the cops. He continued on. I got back into traffic thinking that was that.

About three hundred yards ahead this clown is going extremely slow, as if he were waiting for me. He sees me and immediately starts in again, this time pushing me toward the outside lanes and the curb. By this time I can still not get to my phone to call and report the trouble. So I stop and get ready for a rumble. He pulls up in front of me, and pulled in in such a way as to block my retreat. He gets out of the car, and so do I. If it's going to happen then I'm ready to dance. I'm already outside my car and ready to fight when he opens up his truck door and a Pit Bull jumps out and stands at attention next to him. He starts calling for me to come towards him to fight, the dog still standing there growling. I've got no gun with me. I can beat this guy no problem in a fight :mad:, but that dog will attack and probably ruin my day. :eek: So I quickly get into the car, grab my phone, and call the police. He got in his truck and tore ass out of there.

Now for the question. If I had had my G19 with me at the time, and if the dog had rushed me, would I have been justified in dropping the dog?

What do you think?
 
I would think the smart thing to do was what you did get back in the car and call the police. you don't want to shoot the dog the animal does not understand he has a jerk for an owner. I guess that I would shoot the dog if there was no other choice, but this is really escalating the problem. You at this point have know way of knowing if the owner is armed or not, and the police do not take too kindly to citizens discharging their weapons on what sounds like a road rage incident. sounds as if the guy had you plenty angry that you wanted to jump out and fight him. keep your head on straight and don't let anger cloud your judgement especially if you are carrying a firearm.

[This message has been edited by Glock Raider (edited April 07, 2000).]
 
I wouldn't assume I could easily win any fistfight.

You're quite lucky you weren't carrying your Glock. Had you been packing and you shot the dog, you'd be in jail. Getting out of the car was a mistake. Roll up your window, lock the door and call the cops.
 
jeffelkins,

I always assume that I can easily win a fist fight. That's how I was taught. I was also taught how to win, and I do. Thanks for the advise though.
 
I concur with GlockRaider. Best solution was what you did; get back in the car. Self-defense in this situation would be problematic inspight of your clear attempts to let the situation die. In some jurisdictions, your getting out in that circumstance alone *could* deny you the self-defense claim. Even if your courts would side with you on allowing the defense, it is always best not to have to be in that situation. The courts are no picnic, even especially when you're innocent.

Also as previously stated, the increasing awareness of road rage right now would also make it problematic for you, as the media would characterize you as the bad guy automatically, especially with a firearm invovled.

Here in Southern California I face that problem[road rage] weekly, if not more often. Just do what you did[pickup cell phone] in a very obvious manner. *Most* of the time people take off in a hurry.

Andy
 
The proper response would have been to take down his license plate number, a description of the vehicle an the direction he was heading.

Turn off in a diffent direction and call and report the situation to the police.

Exiting your vehicle with intention to "fight" was extremely stupid.

He demonstrated serious aggression and could have easily stepped out of his vehicle with a shotgun and splattered you all over the pavement.

But back to your question...no, you would not have been justified in "dropping the dog".

You voluntarily exited your vehicle with intention to fight. You were looking for confrontation. If you have a CCW permit, you are supposed to avoid confrontation. Shooting the man or the dog would not have been justified.
 
Absolutely right.

In any public confrontation you have what our justice system refers to as a duty to retreat. it means if you CAN remove yourself to a safe position to stave off an assault on yourself, you are expected to do so, prior to using force.

In this instance you had a 'safe haven' in the form of your car. the threat against you was a dog. Dogs can't open car doors. You did precisely the right thing, legally, whether you were carrying your gun or not. You retreated, called the cops, and managed to resolve the situation without a use of force.

If you had capped the pooch, you would probably have been charged with some flavour of discharging a weapon improperly. I don't know if you would have gone to jail that night or not (you could be summonsed to appear in court for a trial and not have gone to jail)...it would all depend on the laws in your area.

Mike

PS BTW, if you change the scenario by asking questions that start with 'but what if,' then you change my answer. If, for instance, you had no place to go, the dog was attacking you and you had no place to hide and could not outrun it, that changes things. Pitbulls can kill or maim. Capping the dog under that circumstance is much more reasonable.


------------------
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -Robert Heinlein
 
You were doing fine until you got out of the car "ready for a rumble". In Arizona you would go to jail for mutual combat if it had become a fistfight. If you had "dropped the dog" as you put it, you would face charges of aggravated assault, animal cruelty, negligent discharge of a firearm within city limits and reckless endangerment. He may have forced you off the road, but he didn't force you out of your car and that would be your undoing in a court of law. I think it's a good thing you didn't have your gun with you. You may have to rethink how you react to people. If every time someone acts in an aggressive manner towards you, and your first thought is "that if it came down to it I would easily beat him in a fight", you have the wrong temperament to be carrying a firearm. If you think I am wrong, so be it, but I won't contribute to your legal defense fund when a scenario like this happens again and you do have a gun.

Remember:

"Be like water."
Bruce Lee

------------------
Guns cause crime like spoons cause Rosie O'Donnell to be fat!

I hunt, therefore I am.



[This message has been edited by blades67 (edited April 07, 2000).]
 
Smith,
I believe others responding to you here are trying to be polite. I, on the other hand, will gladly tell you that your thoughts on "dropping" the dog make it obvious that you should not have a permit to carry. Have you ever heard the term "In the gravest extreme"? You need to learn the responsibilities that come with firearms.
Sincerely, Patrick

------------------
Think!
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I always assume that I can easily win a fist fight. [/quote]

What if it's not a fist fight? As you discovered, the other guy might not want to play fair.

Besides that, though, suppose that Mr. Nasty hadn't had his dog along. Suppose that you and he pulled over, did some yelling, and then started duking it out. Now suppose that a police officer drives by and sees you beating the tar out of Mr. Nasty. Hmmm... Who's going to look like the victim in that situation?

I was in a similar situation last week: a car in another lane pulled into my lane and would have hit my truck if I hadn't swerved left into the turning lane. I didn't use my horn, though. I figured that my tires had already screeched loudly enough to let Mr. Stupid know what he'd done, so why antagonize him? Odds are that he just neglected to check his blind spot while changing lanes. A block down the road, he turned left, I went straight and that was the end of it.

P.S.: When I saw the title of this thread I thought it was going to be about someone's choice between a Glock 19 and one of those hideous Auto Ordnance "Pit Bull" pistols. :D
 
I'm glad you made it out okay, being attacked by a pitt bull is probably worse than being shot! I consider a dog to be the most dangerous weapon regular people can get. I would consider what he did to be equal to brandishing a gun at you, or maybe worse. He could have sent the dog after you so fast, you prob wouldn't have time to get back in the car. If given the chance, I'll always choose to avoid a confrontation with a dog. Any handgun is no match for a big dog. Your G19 would only have done damage if you could have hit the dog, but that's a very hard moving target. A G19 against a pitt bull? Only if it is your VERY LAST RESORT.

One quick question, what makes you think you could take him? All it would take is for him to pull a knife or gun and you might have had a VERY bad day. Nowadays, I view every fight as a fight to the death, and you can never tell whether you will win or lose . You don't know who is carrying. I know a few VERY good martial artists that will easily tell you that they never assume they will win a fight, and will walk away from a fight if at all possible.

[This message has been edited by Gino (edited April 07, 2000).]
 
In addition to the other reasons that shooting the dog was wrong, if you pulled a gun to shoot the dog, the other guy could also pull a weapon, and fire at you, claiming self defense as he thought you were firing at him.

Never pull a gun unless you plan to fire, and know you have sufficient provocation to justify firing.
 
Smith, you probably did the right thing just as it was. If it hadn't been for the dog, you'd probably been doin us all a favor by paving the road with the chump.
 
You really shouldn't have gotten out of the car. You SHOULD have completed your call to the police with the guy's license #.

IF you fought the guy and you WERE pummeled (dog or no dog), and you reached for the gun and plugged the guy, YOU would be in deep trouble even though you feared for your life... becasue YOU allowed it escalate when you got out of YOUR car. Self Defense is no longer a viable excuse.

On THAT note,
Ben

------------------
Almost Online IM: BenK911
ICQ # 53788523
"Gun Control Is Being Able To Hit Your Target"

[This message has been edited by Ben (edited April 07, 2000).]
 
I got into a similar situation two summers ago, which I regret to this day. Had a guy follow me home on a Sunday afternoon, while I had my fiancee with me. To make a long story short, he went from telling me how bad he was going to whip me to crying like an old bitch in my front yard while I held a machete in his face, screaming obscenities at the top of my lungs while all the neighbors watched. If I had been carrying MY Glock 19, I'm about 90% sure I would have shot him. Needless to say, I had a horrible temper back then. I also had owned my Glock about 6 months, but I hadn't taken my CCW class yet.

That class turned me around 180 degrees. I now realize that threatening someone's life is SERIOUS business, and you had better damn well, without a doubt, be justified in even bradishing - much less using - a weapon of any sort in self defense. Use a weapon without just cause, go to jail. Do not pass go, do not collect 200$.

I have since been in two other altercations, in which I simply smiled and walked away. Did it hurt my ego? Not really. I was packing heat both times. And both times, the goofs were NICELY made aware of the fact I was "strapped". I never shouted, postured, or brandished. I was NICE the whole time. It's amazing how being calm will change a person's attitude without escalating the level of violence. I had one guy immediately apologize about 100 times, the other time three Cro-Mags politley said "please excuse us for our behavior". Mabye being all business in a life or death situation is better than trying to act like a bad ass, I don't know. It works for me.

In any case, the best thing you can do in a sticky situation is LEAVE THE SITUATION. No matter how much I rave about my beloved G19, the best weapon a man can possess is his BRAIN. Never let emotion cloud your judgement. You life is too important to let emotion override your common sense. Walking away from a bad situation, even though you won't have any movies made about you, is the best thing to do, bar none. For starters. ;-)

If I had been in another community where I'm not as well-known and liked, I'd probably be in the pen right now for that machete incident. The instructors at my CCW class vividly showed me how a bad temper can get you in jail really quick, gun or no gun.

One other thing, women DO NOT like to see their other half blow their stack, despite the macho imagery you see on TV and movies. My fiancee saw me make a grown man cry by threatening his life, and she didn't like it one bit. She thought I was some kind of loon for about 3 months or so. However, she was awed when she had three drunken gorillas apologize to her after a polite conversation with me. Use you brains first, gun last.

Sorry for being long winded, I have a tendency to rant.



------------------
"Oh yeah? Well I talk LOOOUDLY! And I carry a BIIIGGER stick! And I'll use it, too." -Yoesemite Sam
 
Smith6288; with an attitude like yours towards fist fighting you're in for a severe ass whooping someday.

Smith6288; I always enjoy someome who say's they did not have time to call the cops, how long does it take to dial 911 anyway? Are you not smarter than the other dimwit, = ignore him; this really pisses persons off with a mentality and mindset you describe. :)

By getting out and confronting this moron you set yourself up for criminal as well as civil litagation id a "incident" takes place; [with either the dog or the owner] as well as bieng tactically stuiped. Never get out of you're car, lock doors, call police.. if forced to.
 
jeffelkins,
I always assume that I can easily win a fist fight. That's how I was taught. I was also taught how to win, and I do.

Heh heh...If you make it to 50, I bet you learn the meaning of 'assume' :)
 
You might have not learned the first rule of a gun fight . Have a gun

The guy did brandish the dog and you should have called the cops about that.

Adog would be very tough to shoot. I have tried to point my finger at mine and I don't know that I could hit him. With my knife I could stab him in the throat.

Never get out of your car if it will drive.

Somebody will whip your azz.

only dogs that are taught to kill humans are threats to us we have thumbs, Thats why our kind will always whip their kind. Tunner and hooch. Not a direct quote.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top