G.W.Bush: Gunning for the Center

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Munro Williams:
Randy,
I reserve the right to choose my friends and dislike whoever the hell I please.
[/quote]

Did I ever say that you did not, Mr. Williams?
 
Randy,

I take it you don't like Bush for the same reasons I don't: "Let's all just make nice and be muy bueno amigos W. Bush," indeed! HAR!!
If you're the grumpy old bastard I think you may be and find yourself in Japan drop me an e-mail and I'll buy you a beer.
Best regards,

Munro

[This message has been edited by Munro Williams (edited July 05, 2000).]
 
Randy Davis,

Well look what King Willy has done to us. I for one would rather have the limp dick Dole in there than what we have now. So, those who said we needed to vote Dole last time were right on, even though we don't have the emergency that we have today! If you like what King Willy gave you, you will love what King Gore has in store for you. And those who say that we need to vote Bush this time are 10 times more right. Anybody can see we have a REAL crises on our hands right now, that is unless you are a closet Gore supporter... and we have had a few of them causing trouble around here lately as well.

You said...

"Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me."

That doesn't even make any sense. Dole didn't even get elected, so how did he fool you?


I am going to spell it it out one more time for you guys who ride in the short yellow bus...


When in this country's history has it's own Commander In Chief led an all out attack on legitimate firearms manufacturers? When have we ever had over thirty states, cities, and even a cabinet department (HUD) trying to sue legitimate gun makers into bankruptcy because they couldn't have their way in Congress? The gun makers are on the verge of bankruptcy and a Republican President and Congress could put a stop to all of this madness caused by the frivolous lawsuits. If gun makers can be sued into bankruptcy, who is going to be next? Bible makers? Automobile makers? No one will be safe.

Gore wants licensing of gun owners and registration of firearms. We all know where that leads... CONFISCATION! When have we had to face this very real posssiblity in the past?

As Jim pointed out, the next president will nominate as many as 4 new Supreme Court justices. Emerson is on the way there, as are some other cases like the one from California, it is an absolute necessity that Al Gore not be picking those judges.

The bottom line is this... The only REAL hope of stopping the antigunners for good without taking up arms in defense of 2nd Amendment rights is a Supreme Court decision that will settle this issue once and for all. We have a very small window of opportunity coming up this November where we can try to stop this thing without bloodshed, and we have to take it. A vote for anybody besides Bush and progun Republicans (and a few Democrats) is a vote to let the shooting begin. Please think long and hard before you decide to take that road!

Sincerely,
Joe

http://second.amendment.homepage.com



[This message has been edited by nralife (edited July 05, 2000).]
 
Munro Williams: you bet I read what Bush *said* in the first post in this thread.

Read my lips: I don't give a damn.

I know what the guy has DONE. That, I care about. He asked for a shall-issue bill, he eagerly signed a decent one, then he eagerly signed a reform bill that cleaned up a few mistakes in the first. He then gladly signed a bill blocking lawsuits against gun makers.

To repeat: Bush is the strongest pro-RKBA presidential candidate since Teddy Rosevelt. He may not look it, in fact he's doing his damnest to convince the sheeple not to notice.

I ain't no sheeple, and I noticed.

Jim
 
Jim, yesterday you were saying that Bush was the most pro-gun presidential candidate we've ever had, but today you're saying he's the most pro-gun candidate since T. Roosevelt. I guess tomorrow he'll be the most pro-gun candidate since Jimmy Carter?

The fact is, every Libertarian candidate since 1976 has been far more pro-RKBA than Bush would ever pretend to be.

And you're not the only one who knows what Bush has done. For example: He's posted on his web site some of the new gun control laws he wants to implement, and it's the same sort of statist nonsense that rightfully draws howls of protest on this forum when espoused by Democrats.

I'm amused by comments from folks who say Bush has to say this stuff, and they're confident he's lying. I've not yet seen a presidential candidate (from any party) who promised to restrict rights and didn't mean it.

[This message has been edited by David Roberson (edited July 05, 2000).]
 
From Bush's site:
"Supports stronger enforcement of existing gun laws, would provide more funding for aggressive gun law enforcement programs such as Project Exile in Richmond, Virginia"

Ok, he wants to enforce all the laws whose enactment we fought so hard. Standard NRA line, now.

"Supports automatic detention for kids who commit crimes with guns."

Why "crimes with guns"? Why not "for kids who commit crimes"? Ah, but I'm just nit-picking this one.

"Supports requiring instant background checks at gun shows by allowing gun show promoters to access the instant check system on behalf of vendors"

If by "vendors", he means licensed dealers, that's already the case, and he OUGHT to know that; He's absorbed some of the propaganda of the gun control movement as being truthful, a good sign that this isn't an issue he feels the need to study much. If by "vendors" he means everybody, (Probably does.) then he's going to attempt to abolish private sales without Brady checks; Not good!


"Supports law-abiding American's constitutional right to own guns to protect their families and home."

Good, but boiler-plate for everyone but the Chuck Schumers of the world. Doesn't really mean anything except that he's not running for Handgun Control Inc's board of directors.

"Supports the current ban on automatic weapons"

Either he's supporting a misunderstanding of a law over six decades old, or he doesn't understand or care about the diference between machine guns and "assault" weapons, and is promising to protect the law we turned the Democrats out of Congress over. Either way, not good.

"Supports banning juveniles from possession of semi-automatic "assault" weapons."

Either he doesn't understand that "assault weapon" is a made up propaganda term for guns fuctionally indistinguishable from other guns, or he's consciously pandering to the enemy.

"Supports increasing the minimum age for possession of a handgun from 18 to 21"

So 18 year olds can vote, and be drafted, but they can't own handguns; Must not consider owning a gun a civil right, or he hasn't thought through the implications.

"Supports banning the importation of foreign made, "high-capacity" ammunition clips."

Do I really need to comment on this?

"Governor Bush supports voluntary efforts to equip all handguns with child safety locks. If Congress passed legislation requiring mandatory trigger locks for all new handguns, he would sign it. He is concerned, however, that such legislation not be seen as a panacea, because adults still have to be responsible for using the trigger locks and for monitoring their children's actions."

Would sign new gun control laws, moving the line for what's a "reasonable" infringement.

"Opposes government mandated registration of all guns owned by law abiding citizens."

Maybe just handguns, for now.

Jim, my reading of the guy is that he was pro-gun in Texas because he saw that as the politically smart thing to do... in Texas. Lacking any personal committment to the Second amendment in particular, or, frankly, to the Constitution in general, he's now adjusting his position on gun control to match what he perceives as the political center in the country at large.

The best we can hope of Bush is that gun control won't be a priority of his administration, the way it would be in a Gore administration. He's already said that he won't let any existing gun control laws be repealed, and that he would sign new ones if presented to him by Congress. But MAYBE he won't be fighting for them.

Look, Jim, I AM going to vote for Bush, barring some unexpected development, because I'm not exactly enchanted with Browne, and there's always the posiblity that Bush might ACCIDENTALLY appoint Justices to the Supreme court who would vote to uphold the Second amendment. Something which will never happen in a Gore administration! Given that he supports laws that violate it, he sure isn't going to appoint such Justices deliberately!

But let me turn this around on you: I've been voting Libertarian since I was old enough to vote, back in the late 70's, and I am going to vote for Bush, (And then puke.) solely to keep Gore from appointing any Justices to the Supreme court. What exactly would it take to get YOU to NOT vote Republican? Bush has already come out in favor of the "assault weapons" ban and Brady law that had us all frothing at the lips six years ago! He's already more anti-gun than any President prior to Bill Clinton, and is about as anti-gun as Clinton would admit to being before he got elected. Just how bad does it have to get before you give up on the Republicans? Or are you welded to them all the way to the (very) bitter end?

------------------
Sic semper tyrannis!
 
What would it take to get me to not vote GOP?

Well I can actually answer that. Dan Lungren in the Calif Governor's race claimed to be GOP. In reality, he should have been honest and worn a swastika(sp?).

In fact, he's a real good example. Ol' Danny boy got shot down by an incredibly small margin; if he hadn't repeatedly pissed off the gunnies he'd have won. I was one of the voices screaming the loudest on TPG and CA-Firearms not to let that rat barsterd get our vote given his uncountable betrayals.

Even so, we paid a price for Democrat Gray Davis being in there. Last year resulted in a flood of bad law; we barely managed to preserve preemption but other than that, we got walked on. Lungren would have been no better though, possibly worse. By dumping his butt, we proved we would NOT automatically support the GOP no matter what, and long-term that was an excellent lesson to instill in both parties.

Seeing the open primary get shot down was another major win. The open primary means that candidates from both parties need to appeal to ALL political spectrums in order to win; anti-gun GOP jerks like Tom Cambell are now screaming their heads off, and that's a good thing :).

Back to topic.

Bush is no Lungren. Not even close. Yes, he supports Exile - go see the separate thread on that. Basically, Exile is a masterful "stall tactic" thunked up by the NRA to hold the line on new Fed gun laws and (to a lesser degree) state laws, until we can get a DC package put together that can roll back the BS and/or get Emerson some support and kick butt in the courts.

The bits linked to or supporting Exile on Bush's website are indicative of close tactical ties to the NRA and are *good* news, for now. Yes, eventually Exile needs to be junked when it's time is done but for now, it's a valuable yet dangerous tool that needs to be used but carefully monitored.

Jim
 
Ok, you guys, look at the alternative.

If you still think the difference is negligible, we must really have diametrically opposite views of what "difference" is.


Straight from the Gore 2000 platform.

VICE PRESIDENT AL GORE:
PROTECTING OUR CHILDREN FROM GUN VIOLENCE


As a member of Congress, and as Vice President, Al Gore has fought to keep dangerous guns out of the hands of criminals. He supported a ban on assault weapons, worked to craft a compromise on the Brady Bill, and has fought for additional penalties for gun-related crimes. In addition, the Vice President has been a vocal advocate for eliminating guns in our schools.

PROPOSING NEW MEASURES TO GET GUNS OFF THE STREET

Gore Has Proposed A Comprehensive Plan to Get Guns Off Our Streets. In a speech to the Boston Police Department, Vice President Gore announced his comprehensive plan to end gun violence. As part of this plan, a Gore Administration will:

Require Photo Licensing for Handgun Purchases. Al Gore will seek a nationally mandated, state-run system of photo licensing for all potential hand gun purchasers. Under the Gore proposal, anyone who wants to buy a handgun would have to have a license that would prove they are eligible to own a handgun (having passed a background check to prevent felons and the mentally ill from buying guns and demonstrated knowledge of gun safety).
Ban “Junk Guns.” Al Gore believes that we should ban so-called “junk guns,” the cheap handguns so often used in violent crimes.
Increase Gun-Related Criminal Penalties. Al Gore will work to increase penalties for gun-related crimes, including the use of a gun in a violent crime, illegal gun trafficking, and for knowingly selling a gun to someone ineligible to purchase one. In addition, Al Gore will provide grants to states to develop systems that will help to end plea bargaining for criminals who use a gun in a crime.
Limit Gun Sales to One-a-Month and Require a Three Day Waiting Period for Purchases. Al Gore believes that a one-gun-a-month limit and a three day waiting period for gun purchases are reasonable measures that can help reduce the number of guns on the street.
Close the Gun Show Loophole. Al Gore will continue to fight to close the loophole that has allowed gun shows to be exempt from the Brady Law.
Require Child-Safety Locks on Hand Guns. In an effort to save the lives of thousands of children, Al Gore will work to require child-safety locks on handguns.
Oppose Special Legal Protections for Gun Manufacturers. Al Gore will oppose efforts to provide special legal protections for gun manufacturers.

Oppose Weakening Restrictions on Concealed Weapons. Al Gore will oppose efforts to loosen existing limits on concealed weapons.
Improve Efforts to Trace Gun Ownership. Al Gore will require gun manufacturers and federally-licensed sellers to report gun sales to a state authority. This requirement would greatly assist law enforcement in tracing ownership of guns if they are used in a crime.

WORKING TO CLOSE THE GUN SHOW LOOPHOLE

Gore Cast the Tie-Breaking Vote to Close the Gun Show Loophole. Vice President Gore cast the tie-breaking vote to pass Senate legislation to close the loophole in existing law that has allowed gun shows to be exempt from the Brady Law, and to require background checks on individuals who seek to retrieve their own guns from pawn shops. Following Gore’s dramatic vote, Sarah Brady of Handgun Control Inc. wrote to the Vice President thanking him for his “continued leadership,” stating that “…once again you have come through at a crucial time for the cause of gun violence protection.”

SUPPORTING A BAN ON ASSAULT WEAPONS

Gore Voted to Ban 9 Types of Assault Weapons. As a Senator in 1990 and 1991, Al Gore supported legislation that would have banned the manufacture and importation of nine assault style weapons.

Gore was Instrumental in Securing Passage of the 1994 Crime Bill. As Vice President, Gore fought to enact the landmark 1994 Crime Bill, which included a provision banning nineteen types of assault weapons. As Gore told CNN: “We've got an epidemic of violent crime and a lot of members of the NRA have told me, these assault weapons weren't made for hunting deer or squirrels or for homeowners...They shouldn't be in the hands of our children on the streets of our cities.”

SUPPORTING THE BRADY LAW

Gore Praised by Sarah Brady for His Leadership in Supporting Brady Bill. In 1991, Sarah Brady of Handgun Control Inc. praised then-Senator Al Gore for his leadership in supporting the Brady Bill. As an original cosponsor of the Brady Handgun Violence Protection Act, Gore worked with Senators Mitchell, Kohl, and Biden to craft a compromise that helped include Brady Bill as part of the 1991 Crime Bill. However, the Crime Bill died after a Republican-led filibuster of the bill.

Brady Bill Became Law Under the Clinton-Gore Administration. The Brady Bill was eventually enacted as a stand-alone bill during the Clinton-Gore Administration, helping to block the sale of more than 400,000 handguns.

SUPPORTING TOUGHER PENALTIES FOR GUN-RELATED CRIMES

Gore Cosponsored Mandatory Minimums for Use of “Cop Killer” Bullets. In 1984, Gore cosponsored a bill to impose mandatory 5-year terms for those using armor-piercing bullets during the commission of a federal crime. That same year, he also co-sponsored a bill to provide for mandatory 15-year sentences for “armed career criminals.”

Gore Supported Tougher Sentences for Criminals Using Guns to Commit Crimes. As a Senator, Gore voted for a proposal to establish mandatory minimums for those who use or possess a firearm during violent or drug-related crime. Later that year, Gore voted for the Omnibus Crime Control Act of 1991, which also included provisions to toughen penalties for using a gun during violent crimes and gun possession by felons.

Gore Supported the 1994 Crime Bill which Increased Penalties for Gun-Related Crimes. The Vice President was a vocal advocate of the landmark 1994 Crime Bill, which increased criminal penalties for a number of gun-related crimes. The 1994 law increased penalties for interstate gun trafficking, for using semiautomatic weapons in violent or drug trafficking offenses, and for making false statements when purchasing guns from federally licensed dealers. In addition, the law authorized the federal death penalty for murders committed with a gun during a federal drug or violent crime. Additionally, the 1994 Crime Bill strengthened federal requirements for obtaining a license to sell firearms.

WORKING TO REDUCE CHILDREN’S ACCESS TO GUNS

Gore Worked to Get Guns Out of Our Schools. In early 1994, Vice President Gore encouraged Congress to pass legislation that will help take guns out of schools. Congress later adopted, and the President signed, the Gun-Free Schools Act, which required all states that receive federal education funding to adopt policies requiring a mandatory 1-year expulsion for any student who brings a gun to school.

Fighting to Keep Handguns Out of the Hands of Our Youth. Vice President Gore and the Administration are fighting to pass the Youth Gun Crime Enforcement Act. This proposal by the Administration would:

Raise the minimum age to possess a handgun from 18 to 21.
CLOSE THE LOOPHOLE THAT ALLOWS THESE YOUTH TO PURCHASE A HANDGUN AT A GUN SHOW OR AN UNLICENSED DEALER EVEN THOUGH THEY COULD NOT DO SO FROM A LICENSED DEALER.
Prohibit juveniles from possessing assault rifles and large capacity ammunition feeding devices that were manufactured before the effective date of the assault weapons ban in 1994. Current law only prohibits these youth from possessing assault pistols.
An Advocate for Child Safety Locks. For nearly two years, Al Gore has been advocating mandatory child safety locks to protect children from handguns. While the Administration reached an agreement with a majority of gun manufacturers to voluntarily include gun locks in the sale of new guns, Gore believes further protections are needed and should be required. That is why he has called upon Congress to pass legislation that would require all guns that are sold to have a child safety lock.

STANDING UP TO THE GUN INDUSTRY

Gore Supports the Rights of Cities to Hold the Gun Industry Responsible. Vice President Gore supports the rights of local governments to sue gun manufacturers and sellers. Over the past year, several local governments – including New Orleans, Chicago, Atlanta, and Miami-Dade County – have filed lawsuits attempting to hold the gun industry responsible for the damage created by their products.


======

Sure, go ahead and pontificate about Bush. Empty suit, not smart enough (and we can all improvise ourselves judges of human minds), not "radical" enough, not "uncompromising" enough...... Harry Browne, pure, smart, non-corrupted (sure, with +/- 3%, what's there to corrupt!?) and..... without a chance in heaven.

Gore? Very real and doggedly determined.

We should know better.

[This message has been edited by 416Rigby (edited July 05, 2000).]
 
Well if GWB gives you a headache on gun rights then Gore will give you Brain Cancer and gun Last rights... It's just that simple ! (Sgt Hafner..)
 
nralife,

I would submit that the multiple elections of FDR were significantly more important, but we have the benefit of hind-sight that those living at the time did not.

My point is this: we have a Republican Congress (and have for almost 6 years) that has done nothing, and I mean NOTHING, to restore to us the rights we have lost over the years. In fact, they have piled on. Brady got a LOT of Republican votes, if you will recall.

GWB is cut from the same elitist cloth as his father. To state otherwise is to ignore the obvious. He has been "pro-gun" because your odds of winning in Texas (I spent the first 19 years of my life there) are increased by being so.

Either way you slice the pie, it's death by multiple cuts. One candidate provides for a thousand, the other just a handful.

To me, voting for Bush is tantamount to passing the buck to my kids. "I stalled 'em, now you guys pick up the fight."

It's a proposed short-term solution to long-term problems. No thanks. Unless we show at the national level what was demonstrated in California with Lundgren then we will lose ground each and every election. Until the GOP is forced, through the withholding of our votes, to give us a worthy Constitutional candidate, then they won't do so. And if you maintain that GWB really IS a Constitution-loving candidate, then I will have lost all hope for you.
 
Bob Locke,

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>It's a proposed short-term solution to long-term problems[/quote]


I couldn't agree more. I have said so myself. That is unless we can get a Supreme Court ruling in our favor!!! For years, for the most part, the Supreme Court has refused to accept 2nd Amendment related cases. With Emerson on the way, the Supreme Court will be forced to take up this issue. We have a chance of kicking the anti's butt once and for all. (Darn, I hate repeating myself. :) ) It is imperative that Al Gore not be picking the next four Supreme Court justices! We could be on the verge of victory, and guys like you are only helping Al Gore by voing for Browne. Honestly, it doesn't make a bit of sense.


Look, if I'm not mistaken you said you lived in California. It looks like Randy Davis is from California too. It's no small wonder that you guys are ready to boil the Republicans in oil. If I lived in California, I would probably be ready to do the same thing, but I say this as a friend and not someone who like to debate, this is not the year for it.

During any war there is a time to advance and certain times where a strategic retreat is necessary. I really would like to advance with a third party candidate for president this year, but right now it is time for a strategic retreat. We need to fall back and regroup the Supreme Court and we need to bring up some supplies from the rear and take care of these damn frivolous lawsuits against law-abiding firearms manufacturers. We have got to keep Al Gore from being elected at all costs! Voting third party this year is just plain not smart.

When the weather clears, after we have regrouped, and after we have been resupplied, I will be proud to follow you into battle by backing whatever third party candidate you choose, but until then we have to back Bush. It is the only logical thing to do.

Sincerely
Joe
 
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