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FYI: 60 Minutes segment on police snipers.
- Thread starter kgs
- Start date
(Then again it could have anti-gun overtones too.) 
I don't know about ya'll but some of the weaponry the police are acquiring is scaring the hell out of me. Why do they need suppressed weapons?? Why do innocuous agencies need dozens of $10K weapons systems??
I know we have a lot of cops on the forums that are excellent at what they do - but they may be the one's looking at you through cross-hairs some day. That scares me. Thank God Janet Reno is gone.....
I know we have a lot of cops on the forums that are excellent at what they do - but they may be the one's looking at you through cross-hairs some day. That scares me. Thank God Janet Reno is gone.....
Yes, it should give pause to everyone, gunnie and anti-gunnie alike that our betters are supplying the gendarme with para-military items while at the same time they are working overtime to disarm us?
Rick
BTW, the suppressed weapons are for three purposes. Suppressed Ruger Mk2s to kill our early-warning-system yappy dogs; to keep police locations less obvious; to keep the rest of the neighborhood from coming around looking to see what all the shootin's about.
Rick
BTW, the suppressed weapons are for three purposes. Suppressed Ruger Mk2s to kill our early-warning-system yappy dogs; to keep police locations less obvious; to keep the rest of the neighborhood from coming around looking to see what all the shootin's about.
i think one quote the are using is a Sheriff saying:
"some people need to be shot"
Why do the Police need to carry AR15s?
I gather unlike the CA serfs, the Police need adequate firepower for multiple shots at multiple targets
"some people need to be shot"
Why do the Police need to carry AR15s?
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=54554State officials maintain they passed the law because no one needs such
weapons. "The only use they have is to kill a large number of people in a
short time," said Nathan Barankin, a top aide to Mr. Lockyer. "No one's
using them to protect themselves or their family or their home. These are
not the weapons of choice for that purpose. We're not trying to disarm the
public; we're just trying to have a safer society."
I gather unlike the CA serfs, the Police need adequate firepower for multiple shots at multiple targets
I've got enough years in SPEC-OPS to know exactly what suppressed weapons are for. I also know more about the employment of these weapons systems than some knuckle-head high school graduate with a "C" average will ever know. The fact that they are routinely handed out and we allow cops to dress up like "ninja's" and run around with all sorts of sexy tactical gear frosts my butt. I remember what I was like as a 20 year old stud with all that stuff - thank god I was never put against the general population (of this country). Just look to Columbine and you see the problems we have. They're real tough and cool until it's time to close with and engage the enemy and actually earn their pay; then they hide behind armored cars and refuse to engage while innocents lose their lives. Either give the cops the training to make them professionals, or get them out of the business totally.
The average lethal shot engagement range for law enforcement is 70 yards - do we really need all that hi-tech gear??
Not a rant on cops - God Bless them. We just need to train them correctly and vet the appropriate operators.
The average lethal shot engagement range for law enforcement is 70 yards - do we really need all that hi-tech gear??
Not a rant on cops - God Bless them. We just need to train them correctly and vet the appropriate operators.
I agreed with legalhack's opinion
I am not trying to be obnoxious about this topic, but some equipment of the police arsenal so pretty unnecessary IMHO. I remember watching a program on Discovery channel about SWAT teams around the US. There was a scene that a police officer is carrying a M4 w/ M203 – not just a flare launcher, it’s a real 40mm-grenade launcher. Also, the Miami PD has .50 cal rifle w/ AP ammo in there SWAT van, too. I hope there is no criminal in my neighborhood that my city SWAT wants to visit some day!
I am not trying to be obnoxious about this topic, but some equipment of the police arsenal so pretty unnecessary IMHO. I remember watching a program on Discovery channel about SWAT teams around the US. There was a scene that a police officer is carrying a M4 w/ M203 – not just a flare launcher, it’s a real 40mm-grenade launcher. Also, the Miami PD has .50 cal rifle w/ AP ammo in there SWAT van, too. I hope there is no criminal in my neighborhood that my city SWAT wants to visit some day!
Not to start any flames, but a .50 does have its place, which is extremely limited. Two shootings come to mind where a .50 would have helped a bunch, both were many years ago. Most of us remember the Texas Tower shooting, and have seen the footage of Whitman's position. Aside from the height, it was pretty well protected. Rounds in Whitman's direction were not really effective (not saying a .50 would be the antedote), but it gives another option.
The other shooting is the 1973 New Orleans incident. Mark Essex had a good position on top of the Howard Johnson's. One of his hides was a boiler room, again made of concrete. A helicopter was called in to provide support, and if memory serves me correctly an officer employed a .375 rifle in the fight (read about the incident in a Time Life book on mass murderers).
Not all shooters give an easy spot to engage them. Having something like a .50 may end the fight quicker, provided it is safe to employ. Just a thought.
The other shooting is the 1973 New Orleans incident. Mark Essex had a good position on top of the Howard Johnson's. One of his hides was a boiler room, again made of concrete. A helicopter was called in to provide support, and if memory serves me correctly an officer employed a .375 rifle in the fight (read about the incident in a Time Life book on mass murderers).
Not all shooters give an easy spot to engage them. Having something like a .50 may end the fight quicker, provided it is safe to employ. Just a thought.
Steve Smith
New member
I'm with Legalhack on this...I can't imagine a city police chief allowing an urban shot over 100 yds...so why a bolt action? Why a scope? If a so-called sharpshooter needs a scope at 100 yds, then the "sharpshooter" school needs help.
--The following does not apply to those with poor or failing eyesight-------
Obviously, the scope is the lazy shooter's way to shoot accurately. It's much easier to learn than open sights, but for goodness sakes! The police sharpshooter is getting paid to practice. Ok, I'll get off the soap box about that.
I just can't see the need for multi-thousand dollar "Sniper Weapons Systems" when it's used for 100 yd targets. A .30-30 lever action could do the job.
--The following does not apply to those with poor or failing eyesight-------
Obviously, the scope is the lazy shooter's way to shoot accurately. It's much easier to learn than open sights, but for goodness sakes! The police sharpshooter is getting paid to practice. Ok, I'll get off the soap box about that.
I just can't see the need for multi-thousand dollar "Sniper Weapons Systems" when it's used for 100 yd targets. A .30-30 lever action could do the job.
cuerno de chivo
Moderator
jokeingly:
also a limited place, a double .470NE for the next circus elephant run amock as in hawaii. of course it would need the stocks painted black and the metal parkerized.
seriously:
i don't have a problem with a pd having a marksmen with an accurate rifle of an appropriate caliber. lots of other problems, but not that one.
also a limited place, a double .470NE for the next circus elephant run amock as in hawaii. of course it would need the stocks painted black and the metal parkerized.
seriously:
i don't have a problem with a pd having a marksmen with an accurate rifle of an appropriate caliber. lots of other problems, but not that one.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
steve Smith: While I tend to raise an eyebrow at the police sniper's "uniform"--I figure blue jeans and tennie runners would serve as well--I assume they do want a very accurate shooting-package.
Regardless of "averages", there could be an occasion when a 300-yard shot or (longer) is required. That's part of the problem: Ya gotta plan for a worst-case scenario.
And not all shots will be in daylight--worst case, again--so a scope is a Good Thing, to my feeble mind...
Fed168: Ground fire from deer rifles is what got Whitman to move from the south side of the UT Tower's observation deck to the northwest corner--where he was killed. It first kept him from shooting over the parapet, so he moved to the drain holes. Return fire stopped that. A problem for the trio up there, going after him, was the ground fire coming through the drain holes. (At least that's what Col. Garrison, then head of DPS, told my father...)
Regards, Art
Regardless of "averages", there could be an occasion when a 300-yard shot or (longer) is required. That's part of the problem: Ya gotta plan for a worst-case scenario.
And not all shots will be in daylight--worst case, again--so a scope is a Good Thing, to my feeble mind...
Fed168: Ground fire from deer rifles is what got Whitman to move from the south side of the UT Tower's observation deck to the northwest corner--where he was killed. It first kept him from shooting over the parapet, so he moved to the drain holes. Return fire stopped that. A problem for the trio up there, going after him, was the ground fire coming through the drain holes. (At least that's what Col. Garrison, then head of DPS, told my father...)
Regards, Art
To quote KGS
Best Regards
When it comes to police snipers like Lon Horiuchi I have some anti-gun feelings myself!For those who may be interested: on Tuesday, January 30, at 9:00 pm eastern, the TV show "60 Minutes II" is going to have a feature on police snipers. Could be interesting. (Then again it could have anti-gun overtones too.)
Best Regards
Charmedlyfe
Moderator
I tried to avoid it, but I have to post.....
On using a 30-30 for shooting,
With everyone talking about 60yard shots (a fair range for an LE shot), someone said they'd do it with a 30-30. Okay, you have your wish. Man-sized target at 60 yards. Moving. Now, put someone in front of him (hostage). She's moving too. Now consider you have to make a CNS shot, first and only.... Precision is not a luxury, it is a NECESSITY. Remember, you will be sued NO MATTER WHAT. You have to take every precaution to safeguard everyone. Including yourself.
As to expensive weaponry:
Imagine yourself in a dark ally with 9 guys with lead pipes, and they need spending money. Are you going to trust a Lorcin or a Raven? Maybe a Hi-Point? You go with the best you can get for the job.
As to the quality of the officer, what makes you think they are any different from you in skill (since you all seem to think SO HIGHLY of yourselves)? I have met very few LE SpecOps team members who are not of a much higher calibre than most. It reminds me of a conversation I had with a guy I know. He's a Desert Storm veteran who liked to toss it around. A bunch of us were all sitting around discussing SWAT stuff, and he started giving his opinion, as usual. He in fact focused on me for my lack of military service. I simply asked him how many times he'd been shot at. By the way, he was a typist. Crede experto. Everyone else in the room (although he didn't know it at the time) had spent a lot of years wearing the colored beanie of their choice, and ALL had their CIBs. The guys I worked with (and learned from) are experts at what they do.
Last, I graduated college, and made it into law school. I spend most of my free time learning more about my chosen profession. I ran point for my team for almost two years before being injured. Grow up, guys....or go back to AR15.com.
On using a 30-30 for shooting,
With everyone talking about 60yard shots (a fair range for an LE shot), someone said they'd do it with a 30-30. Okay, you have your wish. Man-sized target at 60 yards. Moving. Now, put someone in front of him (hostage). She's moving too. Now consider you have to make a CNS shot, first and only.... Precision is not a luxury, it is a NECESSITY. Remember, you will be sued NO MATTER WHAT. You have to take every precaution to safeguard everyone. Including yourself.
As to expensive weaponry:
Imagine yourself in a dark ally with 9 guys with lead pipes, and they need spending money. Are you going to trust a Lorcin or a Raven? Maybe a Hi-Point? You go with the best you can get for the job.
As to the quality of the officer, what makes you think they are any different from you in skill (since you all seem to think SO HIGHLY of yourselves)? I have met very few LE SpecOps team members who are not of a much higher calibre than most. It reminds me of a conversation I had with a guy I know. He's a Desert Storm veteran who liked to toss it around. A bunch of us were all sitting around discussing SWAT stuff, and he started giving his opinion, as usual. He in fact focused on me for my lack of military service. I simply asked him how many times he'd been shot at. By the way, he was a typist. Crede experto. Everyone else in the room (although he didn't know it at the time) had spent a lot of years wearing the colored beanie of their choice, and ALL had their CIBs. The guys I worked with (and learned from) are experts at what they do.
Last, I graduated college, and made it into law school. I spend most of my free time learning more about my chosen profession. I ran point for my team for almost two years before being injured. Grow up, guys....or go back to AR15.com.
I for one feel that the proper training is a must. Art read me the riot act (just kidding) on flat shooting rifles and I sent him a Pic of my Winchester Model 70, heavy barreled, scoped rifle....Sorry guys, eyes you know. I can hold a darn good group at 300 yards and I am in that weapon far less than $800. I have a great Match grade reload that greatly helps. So if I can do that all day long and someone stated the average LE Tactical shot was 70 yards why are SWAT teams spending $8,000 for Weapons. The last two tags I say that said SOLD TO ----- Swat were a Remington 700 custom that you wouldn't even believe complete with suppressor. The other was same carbon compostite barreled Manlicker .308 with a 20 inch barrel and a scope that labeled the BG with his DOA tag or something. If I can shoot sub MOA at 100 and 200. Working on tightening up my 300 yard groups with an $800 rifle....I bet with their high dollar, state of the art, custom stuff, composite, full vis, lazer guided toy, I could shoot 5 and have only one hole.
Sorry but I am just one of those people that knows the weapon is superiour and the average guy or gal isn't going to out shoot their weapon.
I want pay the bucks for a National Match M1A as our guys never carried them. I will however learn to shoot the Model 70 and the M1A at 600 yards and beyond. That I intend to do just to satisfy myself and achieve a goal.
But as Art stated about the UT Tower, it was DEER RIFLES that caused him to move and DEER RIFLES placing rounds through the drain holes. Those where some very capable Marksman and I doubt that between them all, they didn't have $8,000 in gear.
Yeppers, One old, opinionated A** but I also figured that the M40A1 and gear cost the American tax payer about $20,000 complete. Hell, UNIT REPLACEMENT COST of that Custom Reminton/Winchester/McMillian/Ertl thing is supposed to be $2,105....maybe less scope, mounts, hard case, toys in the case, paint job....But it said cost is $2,105. Do the cops need to have an $8,000 weapon in inventory collecting dust, while Carlos Hathcock was beating the bush with a $2,105 weapon? Figure that one out
Sorry but I am just one of those people that knows the weapon is superiour and the average guy or gal isn't going to out shoot their weapon.
I want pay the bucks for a National Match M1A as our guys never carried them. I will however learn to shoot the Model 70 and the M1A at 600 yards and beyond. That I intend to do just to satisfy myself and achieve a goal.
But as Art stated about the UT Tower, it was DEER RIFLES that caused him to move and DEER RIFLES placing rounds through the drain holes. Those where some very capable Marksman and I doubt that between them all, they didn't have $8,000 in gear.
Yeppers, One old, opinionated A** but I also figured that the M40A1 and gear cost the American tax payer about $20,000 complete. Hell, UNIT REPLACEMENT COST of that Custom Reminton/Winchester/McMillian/Ertl thing is supposed to be $2,105....maybe less scope, mounts, hard case, toys in the case, paint job....But it said cost is $2,105. Do the cops need to have an $8,000 weapon in inventory collecting dust, while Carlos Hathcock was beating the bush with a $2,105 weapon? Figure that one out
Steve Smith
New member
I wasn't trying to start another flame war!
Art, you said:
steve Smith: While I tend to raise an eyebrow at the police sniper's "uniform"--I figure blue jeans and tennie runners would serve as well--I assume they do want a very accurate shooting-package.
I didn't say anything about clothing. I have started shooting DCM lately, and I fully understand the need for tight, and ridgid clothing for acuracy, but for the record, the storm trooper look makes me wonder about their intent. Is their intent to save lives, or are they guys who get off on "Taking Out" folks. From what I've read, the sniper's hero, Carlos Hathcock never "got off" on killing...he was saving lives...humbly.
Regardless of "averages", there could be an occasion when a 300-yard shot or (longer) is required. That's part of the problem: Ya gotta plan for a worst-case scenario.
You're right...standard rifles are normally capable of this just fine...My money says that a police sniper couldn't shoot up to the potential of a standard Model 70 (not that I could, either)...why the SWS then?
And not all shots will be in daylight--worst case, again--so a scope is a Good Thing, to my feeble mind...
You're right about this too, however, unless the reticle is lit AND the target is totally identifiable, the scope's still worthless. But you did make a good point with that one.
George...settle down, Turbo. I didn't suggest that they SHOULD use a .30-30. I merely said that it would do the job if they could do the job.
Bottom Line, I think the SWS idea is basically a crutch so that poor riflemen can make better shots. I guess it's cheaper than training.
And finally, I don't "think so highly of myself" but perhaps I do think less of the average LEO. Some are great guys...many here are. Their actions show that they are above average. However, the actions of most LEOs tells me that there is a lot of "power tripping" going on...and the storm trooper pajamas and 10K sniper rifles reinforce that thought.
Art, you said:
steve Smith: While I tend to raise an eyebrow at the police sniper's "uniform"--I figure blue jeans and tennie runners would serve as well--I assume they do want a very accurate shooting-package.
I didn't say anything about clothing. I have started shooting DCM lately, and I fully understand the need for tight, and ridgid clothing for acuracy, but for the record, the storm trooper look makes me wonder about their intent. Is their intent to save lives, or are they guys who get off on "Taking Out" folks. From what I've read, the sniper's hero, Carlos Hathcock never "got off" on killing...he was saving lives...humbly.
Regardless of "averages", there could be an occasion when a 300-yard shot or (longer) is required. That's part of the problem: Ya gotta plan for a worst-case scenario.
You're right...standard rifles are normally capable of this just fine...My money says that a police sniper couldn't shoot up to the potential of a standard Model 70 (not that I could, either)...why the SWS then?
And not all shots will be in daylight--worst case, again--so a scope is a Good Thing, to my feeble mind...
You're right about this too, however, unless the reticle is lit AND the target is totally identifiable, the scope's still worthless. But you did make a good point with that one.
George...settle down, Turbo. I didn't suggest that they SHOULD use a .30-30. I merely said that it would do the job if they could do the job.
Bottom Line, I think the SWS idea is basically a crutch so that poor riflemen can make better shots. I guess it's cheaper than training.
And finally, I don't "think so highly of myself" but perhaps I do think less of the average LEO. Some are great guys...many here are. Their actions show that they are above average. However, the actions of most LEOs tells me that there is a lot of "power tripping" going on...and the storm trooper pajamas and 10K sniper rifles reinforce that thought.