“Front Sight or No Front Sight that is the question”

Generally, though, most everybody with serious credentials says one thing, and a handful of guys (most who coincidentally have techniques named after themselves and epaulettes on their shirts) say a few other, different things.
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Seems a trifle unfair to imply that folks like Sykes, Fairbairn, Klein, Jordan, Bryce, and so on didn't have serious credentials. Tom's got some pretty good credentials himself, come to think of it, and mine aren't too bad. Matt's creds are good enough that he gets invited to conduct seminars at IALEFI, and that seems pretty serious. If I misunderstood the post I'll apologize in advance, but if I got it right and the contention is those who support threat focused shooting don't have serious credentials, well, let's decide what constitutes "serious credentials" and go from there.
 
The thing about Tom Givens is, he has had well over 50 student in gunfights now. And very well documentated.

We can all talk about Cooper or Applegate or Fairbrain's students having told them about how sucessful they were (those that were not sucessful ususally didn't write back.) I have not read of any account by Fairbrain, Applegate, or Cooper detailing many, or all, or even a good portion, of the actual shootings their students were in.

But Tom has even disected many of his students confrontations at the Polite Society and NTI. That speaks very well for what he does.

And the focus for most of his students confrontations are civilian in nature and almost all are carjackings or robberies.

They have all been sucessful to.
 
I reckon it's because Cooper, Applegate, and Fairbairn didn't think it was cool to go around talking about killing folk, or feel the need to talk about all their people their students had killed.
 
I reckon it's because Cooper, Applegate, and Fairbairn didn't think it was cool to go around talking about killing folk, or feel the need to talk about all their people their students had killed.
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I don't think the latter two cared all that much. Cooper was apparently open about how many he had killed, and frequently mentioned fights his students had been in. He didn't discuss it for entertainment value, but to discuss where techniques came from (i.e. the Mozambique drill that developed from a situation a friend of his was involved in) or what could be learned from the situation.
 
I reckon it's because Cooper, Applegate, and Fairbairn didn't think it was cool to go around talking about killing folk, or feel the need to talk about all their people their students had killed.
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Givens discusses it as part of what works. Theory is one thing, but having students survive, and come back and be debriefed is nother thing.

Unless one researches what actually happens in a gunfight, then all is just guess work. Givens is not using guess work.
 
DCJS, interesting post,and I would say well written, I am particularly found of EU/ED having been trained in it by a couple of true Ole timers. It is one topic that creates more BS than most, I say keep teaching it the way you are.

Dave James
 
Unless one researches what actually happens in a gunfight, then all is just guess work. Givens is not using guess work.
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Nor were Cooper, Sykes, Fairbairn, and a host of others. They didn't write about it much, but certainly Cooper and Sykes studied gunfights, and had plenty of gunfight survivors sit down with them and talk about what worked and what didn't. IIRC, during WWII Fairbairn made an effort to meet with every agent he could that had been in a gunfight when they returned to HQ.
 
In situations where I had to shoot quickly—especially in long range shots— I
would have bring my weapon up, get a general direction and send a couple
on to the suspect. Than figure out the situation and if need be to fire more,
I would have done so more accurately.

In CQ, I would have bring the weapon up and sent three or four quick ones.
 
In situations where I had to shoot quickly—especially in long range shots— I
would have bring my weapon up, get a general direction and send a couple
on to the suspect. Than figure out the situation and if need be to fire more,
I would have done so more accurately.
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First off, THIS THREAD IS OLD.

Second, are you telling me that you think that you'll HAVE to shoot quickly at LONG RANGE? What's your definition of "long range"?

Third, are you also telling me that your technique is to "get a general direction and send a couple on to the suspect" is basically spray-and-pray?

From the context I'm getting is that you're not even making sure where you're firing your bullets. How do you think you're going to explain yourself if you end up on the witness stand?
 
Long range: 100m – 300m
My general direction: The whole target, not just the body or head.
Before firing my bullets: I consider where my bullets is going to end up.
 
Long range: 100m – 300m
My general direction: The whole target, not just the body or head.
Before firing my bullets: I consider where my bullets is going to end up.
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At that distance, you're only asking for trouble. How in the world you come up with thinking of shooting at that distance and able to justify that is beyond me.

Hope you have a fantastic attorney...
 
I know this is an old thread. Just came upon it today. Had to give my 2 cents.
I've been POINT or INSTINCTIVE shooting for years. I don't look at the sights or down the barrel. I feel in a serious defensive situation it will probably be dark, or I won't have time to put on my glasses. How many of us use special glasses for shooting? It will probably be pretty close. If it's a longer shot I could probably take cover & use aimed fire if necessary. Real life shootings, especially non LEO, that's most of us, are usually quick & close.
I can hit a 9" pie plate very consistantly & fast at seven yds. Faster than when I try using my sight quickly. Much faster. I'm a good shot with sights, but not fast. I practice from different positions. I do find some handguns are more natural pointing than others. These are the only ones I would go to.
 
First off, THIS THREAD IS OLD.
Second, are you telling me that you think that you'll HAVE to shoot quickly at LONG RANGE? What's your definition of "long range"?
Third, are you also telling me that your technique is to "get a general direction and send a couple on to the suspect" is basically spray-and-pray?
From the context I'm getting is that you're not even making sure where you're firing your bullets. How do you think you're going to explain yourself if you end up on the witness stand?
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Old threads can be new to new people, and different people from different places can have very different concerns. Some folks should try getting out of the USA and living for a while in some countries that are really dangerous!
 
Old threads can be new to new people, and different people from different places can have very different concerns. Some folks should try getting out of the USA and living for a while in some countries that are really dangerous!
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1. And some folks outta get up to speed on current events.

2. I said that statement back when it first got resurrected....way back at Christmas time. You're just now responding? Oh, wait. Let me guess. You didn't see that it didn't get dug up YET AGAIN.

3. People obviously don't have any problem digging up old threads to post. So, I'm sure the new-to-them threads can be read and let the sleeping dog lie...just like I should have in dignifying a response...

It just never ends....
 
I read so much junk about training & arm positions & this & that. You can't learn all this stuff & make it instinctive. It take too much practice. This stance & that stance. Maybe a few could if they continue to train. Most don't.
Learn to hit your target from any position. You may be on the ground, against a wall, off balance. It will probably be close, dark, or your shooting glasses didn't magically materialize. Practice instinctive & close. Civilians, cops still miss close. Practice. If it's a long shot look for cover first you'll probably be safe.
 
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