Front Sight Course
- Thread starter Tom B
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A free course? What's not to like? 
Some of you might be interested in how this thread looks to a novice. I have taken exactly ONE course. That from John Farnam and Dennis Tueller. So I'm NOT an expert at all. The following is solely based on the information in this thread:
I won't be taking any courses from Dr. Piazza. I have known many people who are good students and master teachers. Some just have a talent for teaching. I do in my field. (But I have the experience, too.) Some people can absorb information and thurn around and teach it well. But when it comes to combat shooting, I want an instructor who has seen the dog. I'll save my money for someone who's been shot at and has successfully shot back, preferably more than once. If I master all they have to teach at Thunder Ranch, Gunsite, etc. I may see what I can learn from the Dr. But I don't have money for all the undeniably good training that is available, so I don't see any time soon when I'll spend money on questionable training.
I also get very concerned when a follower (student, whatever term you like) defends their guru in the manner that FF does. It smells a bit cultic. This is from my sitting back and watching perspective, with no axe to grind in this debate. FF, you might want to think about that.
Some of you might be interested in how this thread looks to a novice. I have taken exactly ONE course. That from John Farnam and Dennis Tueller. So I'm NOT an expert at all. The following is solely based on the information in this thread:
I won't be taking any courses from Dr. Piazza. I have known many people who are good students and master teachers. Some just have a talent for teaching. I do in my field. (But I have the experience, too.) Some people can absorb information and thurn around and teach it well. But when it comes to combat shooting, I want an instructor who has seen the dog. I'll save my money for someone who's been shot at and has successfully shot back, preferably more than once. If I master all they have to teach at Thunder Ranch, Gunsite, etc. I may see what I can learn from the Dr. But I don't have money for all the undeniably good training that is available, so I don't see any time soon when I'll spend money on questionable training.
I also get very concerned when a follower (student, whatever term you like) defends their guru in the manner that FF does. It smells a bit cultic. This is from my sitting back and watching perspective, with no axe to grind in this debate. FF, you might want to think about that.
Well Caption, although I don't like the tone of this discussion, I must align with fastforty on this.
I have attended classes at Front Sight and been impressed with the quality of instruction, the instructors, the attention to detail and overall experience. Since I don't have extensive experience with the other schools, I am not in a position to comment about which school is "the best". However, I do develop and deliver training as part of my position (not in the firearms industry) and I feel qualified to judge well-organized, well-delivered training.
I will say that my experiences with Dr. Piazza has been professional. He has operated with integrity and runs a professional organization. Finally, I don't know if Dr. Piazza has "seen the dog" or not. I do, however, know that many of the instructors have "seen the dog" and many are LEOs who may have. For me, this is not a requirement for an instructor; however, I understand where it might be desired.
The bottom line is that I am advocate for all high-quality training programs. I believe Front Sight to be one. I would encourage you to reconsider them as a training alternative. I believe they have something for you to learn, as do the other high quality schools. I, for one, want to train at several high quality schools and be taught be the best in the industry. Finally, as far as the best, I believe that to be very individual, highly dependant on your stage of development and change over time.
I have attended classes at Front Sight and been impressed with the quality of instruction, the instructors, the attention to detail and overall experience. Since I don't have extensive experience with the other schools, I am not in a position to comment about which school is "the best". However, I do develop and deliver training as part of my position (not in the firearms industry) and I feel qualified to judge well-organized, well-delivered training.
I will say that my experiences with Dr. Piazza has been professional. He has operated with integrity and runs a professional organization. Finally, I don't know if Dr. Piazza has "seen the dog" or not. I do, however, know that many of the instructors have "seen the dog" and many are LEOs who may have. For me, this is not a requirement for an instructor; however, I understand where it might be desired.
The bottom line is that I am advocate for all high-quality training programs. I believe Front Sight to be one. I would encourage you to reconsider them as a training alternative. I believe they have something for you to learn, as do the other high quality schools. I, for one, want to train at several high quality schools and be taught be the best in the industry. Finally, as far as the best, I believe that to be very individual, highly dependant on your stage of development and change over time.
George Hill
Staff Alumnus
The Term is "The Elephant".
You have either "Seen the elephant" or you have not.
If you were prepairing to climb Mt. Everest - wouldn't you want to learn from those that already have or are you going to learn from those that have never even been near Mt. Everest?
There is a very big difference there. On one hand you got a man that has made that climb - and another that is just regurgitating bits of info from what he remembered when he talked to the guy that a made the climb.
You guys might not grip that because you have never Seen the Elephant either... so you dont understand... you dont
Thats fine.
I know the difference... Rich knows, Mad Dog knows... and others that take this subject very seriously know too. I don't care how impressive an establishment Dr Pizza has - because in my opinion it doesnt matter. Its hollow.
You guys can get all pissy in objection to my opinions... but at least I have my opinions based on something other than what a nice guy Dr Pizza is and what a nice place he has.
You have either "Seen the elephant" or you have not.
If you were prepairing to climb Mt. Everest - wouldn't you want to learn from those that already have or are you going to learn from those that have never even been near Mt. Everest?
There is a very big difference there. On one hand you got a man that has made that climb - and another that is just regurgitating bits of info from what he remembered when he talked to the guy that a made the climb.
You guys might not grip that because you have never Seen the Elephant either... so you dont understand... you dont
Thats fine.
I know the difference... Rich knows, Mad Dog knows... and others that take this subject very seriously know too. I don't care how impressive an establishment Dr Pizza has - because in my opinion it doesnt matter. Its hollow.
You guys can get all pissy in objection to my opinions... but at least I have my opinions based on something other than what a nice guy Dr Pizza is and what a nice place he has.
George just originally opined to spend your money elsewhere. Big deal.
I am a bit concerned at the intensely emotional responses that followed.
When I was in Ohio, I took some training from a guy named Busey, or Bussey, think it was. He claimed to be one of only a handful of "combat masters". I don't know about that, but he test shot everyone's sidearm before training started.
He put both rounds from my Glock 21 into the same hole from 10 yards, with a rapid draw and controlled pair. Wow. About 7 years later, I still remember a lot of information from that class. I have carefully compared things I learned there (for instance, legal requirements for using lethal force) with training and information I have since received. I don't recall having learned anything false in that class, even down to "1911's are great, but Glocks are better."
He was obviously good, right? But the same group he was involved with- and I liked them all, incidentally- kinda screwed me on some business dealings. I also found that some things at least one of the major trainers claimed were false, as I was also training with a martial arts group in which he claimed multi-level dan ranking.
Maybe Mr. Busse (Busey? Bussey? dunno) was entirely innocent. Sometimes we're judged by the company we keep. I pay careful attention to the folks who've seen a lot of training, and I don't contradict them.
So, you pays your money, and you takes your chances. For me, when someone I know who has no ulterior motivation, and who has a long history of working hard for all firearm owners- and extensive experience- gives his opinion, I pay attention.
$.02
I am a bit concerned at the intensely emotional responses that followed.
When I was in Ohio, I took some training from a guy named Busey, or Bussey, think it was. He claimed to be one of only a handful of "combat masters". I don't know about that, but he test shot everyone's sidearm before training started.
He put both rounds from my Glock 21 into the same hole from 10 yards, with a rapid draw and controlled pair. Wow. About 7 years later, I still remember a lot of information from that class. I have carefully compared things I learned there (for instance, legal requirements for using lethal force) with training and information I have since received. I don't recall having learned anything false in that class, even down to "1911's are great, but Glocks are better."
He was obviously good, right? But the same group he was involved with- and I liked them all, incidentally- kinda screwed me on some business dealings. I also found that some things at least one of the major trainers claimed were false, as I was also training with a martial arts group in which he claimed multi-level dan ranking.
Maybe Mr. Busse (Busey? Bussey? dunno) was entirely innocent. Sometimes we're judged by the company we keep. I pay careful attention to the folks who've seen a lot of training, and I don't contradict them.
So, you pays your money, and you takes your chances. For me, when someone I know who has no ulterior motivation, and who has a long history of working hard for all firearm owners- and extensive experience- gives his opinion, I pay attention.
$.02
Rich Lucibella
Staff
FF-
I took no personal offense to your words. We simply have a disagreement. As concerns my "smoke and fire" analogy, yes, this is a case of guilt before innocence. But I don't have Nate on trial here...we're talking about where we choose to spend our money. In that regard, we each have a right (and often exercise it) to vote based on things we've heard and things that concern us. Dr. Piazza's reputation causes me enough concern that, given a choice of where I'll spend my training dollars/time, he fails to make the cut. YMMV
AA-
In response to your questions, the "three" was a typo. You asked about my sense of these schools:
Gunsite: http://gunsite.net/
Buz Mills has done a simply phenomenal job with facilities development. The curriculum is very well developed and uniform from class to class, thanks to Ops Director Colonel Bob Young. The instructors are top notch. From Beginner Handgun to Tac Rifle, you simply will not be sorry....training is stepwise and by the numbers. A great place for foundational training. Finally, this is the only place available to train under Jeff Cooper....consider doing so before 2025, as I don't expect him to make it much past his 110th birthday.
Thunder Ranch: http://www.thunderranchinc.com/
It has been said that Gunsite will teach you to shoot, while Thunder Ranch will teach you to fight and I think this is true in a lot of ways. Clint Smith keeps his classes and yearly student roster small, though he could easily accomodate 3X the business. This is due to his insistence on providing training thru a very small, hand picked group of trainers (now including Jack Furr mentioned above). The curriculum pays due allegiance to the Modern Technique, but is hardly a Cooper copy. Clint knows his stuff, has "been there and done that" and has developed a teaching curriculum that is based on his own perceptions, priorities and observations. Even Cooper grants Clint his due. Again, you simply cannot loose.
GSGI/Harry Humphries: http://www.gsgi.org/
Harry's a bit out of the reach of most civilians. While SEAL trained (and I mean Real Deal, Marcinko/ VietNam and points unknown, SEAL), Harry has come to embrace the Modern Technique as made famous by Cooper as the basis for his training, but also moves beyond it in specific areas. Harry's focus has been on Police/Operator training for the past couple of years, and finding a civilian class is always a gem. His training is fast paced and loaded with content. If you ever have a chance to beg/borrow or steal your way into a GSGI AFCQC Class, don't miss it....that seems to be Harry's first love. However, I've had the honor of attending a GSGI "Precision Rifle" course for LEO's and a Dynamic Entry Class for the same market....He need take his hat off to no other group in this regard, either. He painstakingly develops his stuff and teaches it well.
These days, Harry splits his time between training/protection and Hollywood Technical Advisor, where he has done more to single-handedly bring proper weapons handling to the Big Screen than any indivisual I know...witness Armageddon, Gi Jane, The Rock, the first year of the Soldier of Fortune series and look for his hand prominently in the upcoming Blackhawk Down.
Louis Awerbuck: http://yfainc.com/
Best known for his Combat Shotgun courses, Louis can teach it all....and does. Also an early Cooper Disciple, Louis Awerbuck may be the single most self-effacing and the single most dangerous man with a firearm that I've met. (God, he'll kill me for saying that.)
Described by some as "Yoda", it's been said that Louie can tell what you had for breakfast based on your noon-time shot group...and I believe it may well be true. Whether it's rifle, pistol or shotgun, with Louis, you'll be assured of personal instruction and insight. He has an ability to walk down a line of shooters, make one or two spot-on comments to each and change their scores dramatically....assuming they listen, believe and execute. Louie is on the road teaching constantly and likely to be in your area sometime soon....he's also available at Gunsite.
To get a sense of the man, read his column in S.W.A.T. magazine. I say this, not only because of my involvement, but because his articles are simply priceless. No one will ever accuse Louie of "thinking inside the box.....or of political corrctness!
Walt Marshall: http://www.awt-co.com/
Last but certainly not least, I shall never forgive myself for leaving Walt Marshall off the list!
I trained with Walt at Gunsite twice and would do so so again in a heartbeat. Like Louie, you can expect plenty of personal attention in Walt's classes. He has an ability to make his students really want to push their limits and has no problem teaching advanced techniques to a class, if it completes the current curriculum ahead of time. We saw this at Gunsite 6 years ago and were treated to almost two days of the 350 course after completing the 250 curriculum....no extra charge! Walt's student following is among the most loyal I know...and for good reason.
That's the rundown of my opinions. However, each of the persons I've mentioned has developed and or tested their approaches in battle; most far more than once. This is by no means the "Who's Who in training....just my personal experience. There's another topic here on Farnam, who's rep is inpeccable; I've heard great things about BlackWater Lodge, but have no personal experience. While I take issue with the magazine persona(s) of Mas Ayoob, I've yet to hear a bad word spoken of his courses by anyone who's attended...though I sense his strengths are more in the areas of surviving the after battle legal war.
With choices like that, and a host of courses that I've yet to take, it becomes obvious why Front Site is not on my list of priorities. Again YMMV.
Rich
I took no personal offense to your words. We simply have a disagreement. As concerns my "smoke and fire" analogy, yes, this is a case of guilt before innocence. But I don't have Nate on trial here...we're talking about where we choose to spend our money. In that regard, we each have a right (and often exercise it) to vote based on things we've heard and things that concern us. Dr. Piazza's reputation causes me enough concern that, given a choice of where I'll spend my training dollars/time, he fails to make the cut. YMMV
AA-
In response to your questions, the "three" was a typo. You asked about my sense of these schools:
Gunsite: http://gunsite.net/
Buz Mills has done a simply phenomenal job with facilities development. The curriculum is very well developed and uniform from class to class, thanks to Ops Director Colonel Bob Young. The instructors are top notch. From Beginner Handgun to Tac Rifle, you simply will not be sorry....training is stepwise and by the numbers. A great place for foundational training. Finally, this is the only place available to train under Jeff Cooper....consider doing so before 2025, as I don't expect him to make it much past his 110th birthday.
Thunder Ranch: http://www.thunderranchinc.com/
It has been said that Gunsite will teach you to shoot, while Thunder Ranch will teach you to fight and I think this is true in a lot of ways. Clint Smith keeps his classes and yearly student roster small, though he could easily accomodate 3X the business. This is due to his insistence on providing training thru a very small, hand picked group of trainers (now including Jack Furr mentioned above). The curriculum pays due allegiance to the Modern Technique, but is hardly a Cooper copy. Clint knows his stuff, has "been there and done that" and has developed a teaching curriculum that is based on his own perceptions, priorities and observations. Even Cooper grants Clint his due. Again, you simply cannot loose.
GSGI/Harry Humphries: http://www.gsgi.org/
Harry's a bit out of the reach of most civilians. While SEAL trained (and I mean Real Deal, Marcinko/ VietNam and points unknown, SEAL), Harry has come to embrace the Modern Technique as made famous by Cooper as the basis for his training, but also moves beyond it in specific areas. Harry's focus has been on Police/Operator training for the past couple of years, and finding a civilian class is always a gem. His training is fast paced and loaded with content. If you ever have a chance to beg/borrow or steal your way into a GSGI AFCQC Class, don't miss it....that seems to be Harry's first love. However, I've had the honor of attending a GSGI "Precision Rifle" course for LEO's and a Dynamic Entry Class for the same market....He need take his hat off to no other group in this regard, either. He painstakingly develops his stuff and teaches it well.
These days, Harry splits his time between training/protection and Hollywood Technical Advisor, where he has done more to single-handedly bring proper weapons handling to the Big Screen than any indivisual I know...witness Armageddon, Gi Jane, The Rock, the first year of the Soldier of Fortune series and look for his hand prominently in the upcoming Blackhawk Down.
Louis Awerbuck: http://yfainc.com/
Best known for his Combat Shotgun courses, Louis can teach it all....and does. Also an early Cooper Disciple, Louis Awerbuck may be the single most self-effacing and the single most dangerous man with a firearm that I've met. (God, he'll kill me for saying that.)
Described by some as "Yoda", it's been said that Louie can tell what you had for breakfast based on your noon-time shot group...and I believe it may well be true. Whether it's rifle, pistol or shotgun, with Louis, you'll be assured of personal instruction and insight. He has an ability to walk down a line of shooters, make one or two spot-on comments to each and change their scores dramatically....assuming they listen, believe and execute. Louie is on the road teaching constantly and likely to be in your area sometime soon....he's also available at Gunsite.
To get a sense of the man, read his column in S.W.A.T. magazine. I say this, not only because of my involvement, but because his articles are simply priceless. No one will ever accuse Louie of "thinking inside the box.....or of political corrctness!
Walt Marshall: http://www.awt-co.com/
Last but certainly not least, I shall never forgive myself for leaving Walt Marshall off the list!
I trained with Walt at Gunsite twice and would do so so again in a heartbeat. Like Louie, you can expect plenty of personal attention in Walt's classes. He has an ability to make his students really want to push their limits and has no problem teaching advanced techniques to a class, if it completes the current curriculum ahead of time. We saw this at Gunsite 6 years ago and were treated to almost two days of the 350 course after completing the 250 curriculum....no extra charge! Walt's student following is among the most loyal I know...and for good reason.
That's the rundown of my opinions. However, each of the persons I've mentioned has developed and or tested their approaches in battle; most far more than once. This is by no means the "Who's Who in training....just my personal experience. There's another topic here on Farnam, who's rep is inpeccable; I've heard great things about BlackWater Lodge, but have no personal experience. While I take issue with the magazine persona(s) of Mas Ayoob, I've yet to hear a bad word spoken of his courses by anyone who's attended...though I sense his strengths are more in the areas of surviving the after battle legal war.
With choices like that, and a host of courses that I've yet to take, it becomes obvious why Front Site is not on my list of priorities. Again YMMV.
Rich
Rich Lucibella
Staff
From Louie's Lips to God's Ears
Some pertinent excerpts from Louie Awerbuck's Tactics Column in July S.W.A.T. on this very issue:
Some pertinent excerpts from Louie Awerbuck's Tactics Column in July S.W.A.T. on this very issue:
Point Blank
New member
Can it really be that hard to grasp an Uzi or M16 firmly,aim in the general area of a watermellon sitting on a post and empty the mag "tactically"??? I think a monkey could master a fully auto weapon after a few mags,guess i could be wrong since i never shot one.
George Hill
Staff Alumnus
Yup - your wrong.
Anyways - I think this thread is about done.
Closing before someone loses an eye.
Anyways - I think this thread is about done.
Closing before someone loses an eye.
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