Front Sight Course
- Thread starter Tom B
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Probably the best money that I never spent. Great time at little cost. Also you get an opportunity to buy your first class at Frontsight at a reasonable price. I am not really into SMG's, but it was a fun filled day with a couple of buddies and 35 or so other gun lovers. There was talk that it is getting to be too expensive and maybe this was the last chance to take the class for free. 3 of us are looking forward to taking the 4 day Tactical shotgun class for only $333.33 ea (the 3 class certificate costs $1000 and you only get to use them for you first paid class. The free class doesn't count as your first.). I would say go for it if it is still available. They have a nice continental breakfast, snacks at the line and pizza afterward. There is a sales pitch for the memberships and building lots, but you don't have to stay for that. No real pressure at all. Dr Piazza is very charismatic and a great salesman, but doesn't use any high pressure techniques like most of the other 'free' deals.
George Hill
Staff Alumnus
Go ahead and take the free SMG class. Have fun.
But if your going to buy your training with your own money - Buy it from where Piazza got his. From Gunsite. Or go to Thunder Ranch.
But if your going to buy your training with your own money - Buy it from where Piazza got his. From Gunsite. Or go to Thunder Ranch.
IMO, Dr. Piazza has taken the best from the hundreds of different courses that he has attended, and packed it all together for the BEST bang for your buck.
Any of the other schools have a Four Weapons Combat Master on site for private tutoring? I've seen Naish do this on MANY occasions, returning the student to the class line with renewed confidence.
Dr. Piazza has a LOT of class, and you get MORE than your money's worth out of every course that he offers. On that, he proudly offers a money-back guarantee.
Any of the other schools have a Four Weapons Combat Master on site for private tutoring? I've seen Naish do this on MANY occasions, returning the student to the class line with renewed confidence.
Dr. Piazza has a LOT of class, and you get MORE than your money's worth out of every course that he offers. On that, he proudly offers a money-back guarantee.
Here is a discussion about the Front Sight sub-gun class. I have taken it, liked it, and returned for follow-on classes.
Here is the link:
http://www.1911forum.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002610.html
Here is the link:
http://www.1911forum.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002610.html
George Hill
Staff Alumnus
Gorthaur - I dont need to justify my opinion for you.
He hired some talent - yippie skippie - Front Sight's founder is still just the Apprentice when compaired to just about every other training school... even the new ones:
Mid South
Black Water
and others.
Piazza is more like Willy Wonka instead of a serious trainer.
He hired some talent - yippie skippie - Front Sight's founder is still just the Apprentice when compaired to just about every other training school... even the new ones:
Mid South
Black Water
and others.
Piazza is more like Willy Wonka instead of a serious trainer.
George Hill
Staff Alumnus
Gorthaur - What is your problem?
Are you offended because I dislike something that you like? Are you really that insecure and take my opinions so personally?
The whole internet is nothing more than people giving OPINIONS.
Some of them differ from yours and so they are irrelevant?
Why don't you calm down with your emotional reactions and try to make a more mature and logical arguement. Why do you think its so great?
Are you offended because I dislike something that you like? Are you really that insecure and take my opinions so personally?
The whole internet is nothing more than people giving OPINIONS.
Some of them differ from yours and so they are irrelevant?
Why don't you calm down with your emotional reactions and try to make a more mature and logical arguement. Why do you think its so great?
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Rich Lucibella
Staff
Hmmm-
Jeff Cooper Instructors still at Gunsite:
Jeff Cooper, hisself
Colonel Bob Young (Director of Operations)
Louis Awerbuck
Walt Marshall
.....come to think of it, most of the rangemasters there have trained under Jeff.
I hardly think that Mr. Piazza's claim to training is with Gunsite....it's more with Chuck Taylor, where Mr. Piazza earned a 4 Gun Master Medal. I've heard rumors (which I seriously doubt) that Nate and Chuck pinned the Medals on each other.
Lighten up people. Train where you wish.....but train.
Rich
Jeff Cooper Instructors still at Gunsite:
Jeff Cooper, hisself
Colonel Bob Young (Director of Operations)
Louis Awerbuck
Walt Marshall
.....come to think of it, most of the rangemasters there have trained under Jeff.
I hardly think that Mr. Piazza's claim to training is with Gunsite....it's more with Chuck Taylor, where Mr. Piazza earned a 4 Gun Master Medal. I've heard rumors (which I seriously doubt) that Nate and Chuck pinned the Medals on each other.
Lighten up people. Train where you wish.....but train.
Rich
I gotta go with George Hill on this one, all the way.
Dr. Iggy.
Prince Piazza.
New Age Guru of the Gun.
The Shirley McClaine of Shooting.
WOW.
What else can one say but...
PUUULLLEEEEZZZE.
Still, free is free; but much like aggressively marketed time share condo deals, one must expect some quantity of crap shoveled on them if they want the "free" TV, vacation in beautiful Anaheim,or wherever.
Although getting to shoot subguns for free is quite a lot of fun, the rest of the attendant marketing hype, desert land offfers, and quasi cultist crap that go along with it at Front Sight are big detractions.
Gorthaur has also sullied Tactical Forums with his emotional stylings in support of Front Sight and Piazza.
One wonders what their relatonship is.
Before one signs up for any of their offerings that are NOT free, I strongly recommend taking a look at the history of Front Sight and Piazza'a dealings with stockholders, former instructors, clients, vendors, and others.
In the meantime, I strongly recommend getting training at Blackwater, Thunder Ranch, or one of the other reputably established schools in the US.
Dr. Iggy.
Prince Piazza.
New Age Guru of the Gun.
The Shirley McClaine of Shooting.
WOW.
What else can one say but...
PUUULLLEEEEZZZE.
Still, free is free; but much like aggressively marketed time share condo deals, one must expect some quantity of crap shoveled on them if they want the "free" TV, vacation in beautiful Anaheim,or wherever.
Although getting to shoot subguns for free is quite a lot of fun, the rest of the attendant marketing hype, desert land offfers, and quasi cultist crap that go along with it at Front Sight are big detractions.
Gorthaur has also sullied Tactical Forums with his emotional stylings in support of Front Sight and Piazza.
One wonders what their relatonship is.
Before one signs up for any of their offerings that are NOT free, I strongly recommend taking a look at the history of Front Sight and Piazza'a dealings with stockholders, former instructors, clients, vendors, and others.
In the meantime, I strongly recommend getting training at Blackwater, Thunder Ranch, or one of the other reputably established schools in the US.
A clueless mind tends to remain clueless
Those of us who HAVE a justifiable opinion...
...usually don't mind stating that which justifies it.
"yippie skippie"? "Willy Wonka"?
Sounds like the ramblings of an insecure child who's been left out of the game on the playground.
I happen to be privy to the REAL story about Dr. Piazza's 4 Weapons Combat Master Degree. If there is ANY question of his honesty, integrity, and credibility, it's put to rest with the knowledge therein. (And no, I'm NOT going to "share" the story. If Naish wanted to get on a podium and tell the world about it, he can certainly afford to do so. Fact is, he doesn't have the personal insecurities that some of the posters on this thread do.)
"Dr. Iggy.
Prince Piazza.
New Age Guru of the Gun.
The Shirley McClaine of Shooting. "
Sounds like the ramblings of another cry-baby wannabe. There ARE NO "aggressively marketed time shares", and there is no "CRAP", either. I have NEVER heard ANYONE who possesses ANY measurable degree of credibility put Front Sight down in ANY way.
If you've taken a course at Front Sight and didn't feel that you got double your money's worth, why didn't you have the balls to take them up on the money-back guarantee?
Personal insecurity and emotional immaturity are the roots of most, if not all backstabbing. There IS a cure for it though....
....grow up
Those of us who HAVE a justifiable opinion...
...usually don't mind stating that which justifies it.
"yippie skippie"? "Willy Wonka"?
Sounds like the ramblings of an insecure child who's been left out of the game on the playground.
I happen to be privy to the REAL story about Dr. Piazza's 4 Weapons Combat Master Degree. If there is ANY question of his honesty, integrity, and credibility, it's put to rest with the knowledge therein. (And no, I'm NOT going to "share" the story. If Naish wanted to get on a podium and tell the world about it, he can certainly afford to do so. Fact is, he doesn't have the personal insecurities that some of the posters on this thread do.)
"Dr. Iggy.
Prince Piazza.
New Age Guru of the Gun.
The Shirley McClaine of Shooting. "
Sounds like the ramblings of another cry-baby wannabe. There ARE NO "aggressively marketed time shares", and there is no "CRAP", either. I have NEVER heard ANYONE who possesses ANY measurable degree of credibility put Front Sight down in ANY way.
If you've taken a course at Front Sight and didn't feel that you got double your money's worth, why didn't you have the balls to take them up on the money-back guarantee?
Personal insecurity and emotional immaturity are the roots of most, if not all backstabbing. There IS a cure for it though....
....grow up
Well guys, although the pissing contest in entertaining and everyone is welcome to their opinion, I would be interested in what actual training you have attended.
What would be great is if you could list the course you have attended and where. Then compare and contrast the training. I know I would find that much more useful. Based on that, I could understand your positions and actually might learn something.
Or, piss away.
What would be great is if you could list the course you have attended and where. Then compare and contrast the training. I know I would find that much more useful. Based on that, I could understand your positions and actually might learn something.
Or, piss away.
Rich Lucibella
Staff
AA-
- Gunsite...6 or 7 times. You'll never be disappopinted.
- Louis Awerbuck...twice. He always amazes.
- Thunder Ranch...once. Absolutely top drawer. I'll return
- GSGI..Twice. Niche operators who truly know their stuff and present it well. No BS; No hype...just High Speed/Low Drag solid training.
- Harry Humphries and Jack Furr for a four day personal tutorial...I learned more there than I could possible absorb.
I have no desire to go to FrontSite because of the controversy that surrounds it. Generally, in the training industry, where there's smoke there's fire. OTOH, the three I mention above seem to carry no controversy...what's that tell us? YMMV
Other possibles:
BlackWater Lodge.
Rich Lucibella
- Gunsite...6 or 7 times. You'll never be disappopinted.
- Louis Awerbuck...twice. He always amazes.
- Thunder Ranch...once. Absolutely top drawer. I'll return
- GSGI..Twice. Niche operators who truly know their stuff and present it well. No BS; No hype...just High Speed/Low Drag solid training.
- Harry Humphries and Jack Furr for a four day personal tutorial...I learned more there than I could possible absorb.
I have no desire to go to FrontSite because of the controversy that surrounds it. Generally, in the training industry, where there's smoke there's fire. OTOH, the three I mention above seem to carry no controversy...what's that tell us? YMMV
Other possibles:
BlackWater Lodge.
Rich Lucibella
George Hill
Staff Alumnus
Fastforty - I urge caution in your tone. Your getting very close to making personal attacks.
Fastforty,
My opinion, justified and stated as succinctly and gently as possible, under the circumstances:
Opinions are like rectums, everybody has one, yourself included.
Keeping one's opinion generator and rectum separated are up to the individual user. You need to work on this.
Having seen Iggy shoot (and do so poorly) as well as having had business dealings with him in the past, I have no desire to give him any money, or take any firearms training from him.
If however, I needed instruction in selecting a tailor, screwing business partners or blame shifting, he would be high on my list of accomplished masters.
If achieving the dubious title of "Four weapons COMBAT master" actually involved any COMBAT, it would, perhaps, be another story altogether....
As it is, Iggy is an arch poseur, and has no combat experience.
Hell, he doesn't even have any top drawer competition bones to brag about.
Personally, I want to learn from folks that have actually been there and done that, rather than those that are regurgitating second and third hand info.
That is why I have been tutored by:
Louis Awerbuck
Harry Humphries
Bill Maugham
Monte Gould
Jeff Cooper
Del Miller
Ron Avery
Bob Young
Dave Hall
and many others that have competed, trained and fought in the real world....
I am currently a part time SWAT and CQB instructor, as well as an Officer Edged Weapon Survival Instructor.
In four days I leave for the East Coast to instruct US and Italian Naval Special Warfare personel in CQB/Knife Fighting.
So, who's the crybaby wannabe?
My opinion, justified and stated as succinctly and gently as possible, under the circumstances:
Opinions are like rectums, everybody has one, yourself included.
Keeping one's opinion generator and rectum separated are up to the individual user. You need to work on this.
Having seen Iggy shoot (and do so poorly) as well as having had business dealings with him in the past, I have no desire to give him any money, or take any firearms training from him.
If however, I needed instruction in selecting a tailor, screwing business partners or blame shifting, he would be high on my list of accomplished masters.
If achieving the dubious title of "Four weapons COMBAT master" actually involved any COMBAT, it would, perhaps, be another story altogether....
As it is, Iggy is an arch poseur, and has no combat experience.
Hell, he doesn't even have any top drawer competition bones to brag about.
Personally, I want to learn from folks that have actually been there and done that, rather than those that are regurgitating second and third hand info.
That is why I have been tutored by:
Louis Awerbuck
Harry Humphries
Bill Maugham
Monte Gould
Jeff Cooper
Del Miller
Ron Avery
Bob Young
Dave Hall
and many others that have competed, trained and fought in the real world....
I am currently a part time SWAT and CQB instructor, as well as an Officer Edged Weapon Survival Instructor.
In four days I leave for the East Coast to instruct US and Italian Naval Special Warfare personel in CQB/Knife Fighting.
So, who's the crybaby wannabe?
I choose my words VERY carefully George, but thanx for the warning. Seems that you, and at least one other could benefit in it's heed.
"Keeping one's opinion generator and rectum separated are up to the individual user. "
Maddog: As stated above, my words are chosen very carefully, so as to NOT smell like what yours do. You need to heed your OWN advise, everyone can smell you a mile away. If you in fact DID see Dr. Piazza "do so poorly" (which I seriously doubt, you've lost any complimentary credibility with your previous posts), I'm sure that most can agree that everyone has a bad day once in a while. I've seen him shoot hundreds of times, the man is truely a master of every weapons system. Everything that you've stated smells of slander & liable.
"So, who's the crybaby wannabe?"
Judging soley by your continued attacks and demeanor....
....I think that everyone gets the picture.
If Dr. Piaza is to be condemned on his training record, looks like you're gonna burn right beside him.
Now, before I post MY list, I'll say this:
I haven't trained at Thunder Ranch, Gunsite, or any of the others mentioned, so I don't put them down out of pure ignorance of their regimen. I've read numerous reviews on them, looks like they offer good training. They sure have a lotta neat toys, anyway. But toys don't make you good at weapons handling, dedicated students and experienced instructors do.
Do I hafta tell you where these courses were taken?
4 times- 4 Day Defensive Handgun
After 30 years of serious shooting, I learned more the first time I took this course than I could ever have imagined that there was to know.
3 times- Advanced Handgun Tactics
This is the course that gets you off of the line & moving. Moving while shooting, a novel idea, huh?
Numerous times- Handgun Skillbuilder
This is a fast paced, all shooting course. Lectures are few, concentration is on speed & accuracy using The Four Secrets.
Handgun Combat Master Prep
Did I say "fast paced" up there? Ok, NOW I know what "fast paced" means. We're getting down to the nitty gritty here, for SERIOUS shooters only. By the time this course was completed, we were drawing and firing COM HITS with our eyes closed the whole way. How's THAT for "muscle memory", Darrel? (I know that you're lurking in the shadows)
2 & 4 Day Practical Rifle
Only took these courses once each, can't wait to do it again. Our instructor was one of the top rated sharpshooters in the US, the man was an AWSOME instructor.
4 Day Tactical Shotgun
This was an AWSOME course, can't wait to do it again. Most shooters don't have a clue what their shotgun is capable of, until they attend a course like this.
I could list off all of the names of instructors, and hours spent in private lessons, but who really cares? Name dropping is just another form of "hey, look who I am". I never believed in it, the proof is in the pudding. Rich listed off some pretty good compliments of the ranges that he's been to, I can say the same about Front Sight & all of it's instructors.
Dr. Piazza has a pretty unique approach to the whole firearms training industry. 99.9% of the people that attend his courses firmly believe that it is a GOOD approach. But, there will always be that 0.01% that have more anal fortitude than open mindedness. It is that 0.01% that I sincerely pity. I'm not here to offend any of TFL's members, but some of them DO offend me. To that, I will most likely offer rebuttal, until it starts looking like a squabble during 1st grade recess. I think that it reached that point at the end of the post just before this one.
Good day gentlemen
"Keeping one's opinion generator and rectum separated are up to the individual user. "
Maddog: As stated above, my words are chosen very carefully, so as to NOT smell like what yours do. You need to heed your OWN advise, everyone can smell you a mile away. If you in fact DID see Dr. Piazza "do so poorly" (which I seriously doubt, you've lost any complimentary credibility with your previous posts), I'm sure that most can agree that everyone has a bad day once in a while. I've seen him shoot hundreds of times, the man is truely a master of every weapons system. Everything that you've stated smells of slander & liable.
"So, who's the crybaby wannabe?"
Judging soley by your continued attacks and demeanor....
....I think that everyone gets the picture.
If Dr. Piaza is to be condemned on his training record, looks like you're gonna burn right beside him.
Now, before I post MY list, I'll say this:
I haven't trained at Thunder Ranch, Gunsite, or any of the others mentioned, so I don't put them down out of pure ignorance of their regimen. I've read numerous reviews on them, looks like they offer good training. They sure have a lotta neat toys, anyway. But toys don't make you good at weapons handling, dedicated students and experienced instructors do.
Do I hafta tell you where these courses were taken?
4 times- 4 Day Defensive Handgun
After 30 years of serious shooting, I learned more the first time I took this course than I could ever have imagined that there was to know.
3 times- Advanced Handgun Tactics
This is the course that gets you off of the line & moving. Moving while shooting, a novel idea, huh?
Numerous times- Handgun Skillbuilder
This is a fast paced, all shooting course. Lectures are few, concentration is on speed & accuracy using The Four Secrets.
Handgun Combat Master Prep
Did I say "fast paced" up there? Ok, NOW I know what "fast paced" means. We're getting down to the nitty gritty here, for SERIOUS shooters only. By the time this course was completed, we were drawing and firing COM HITS with our eyes closed the whole way. How's THAT for "muscle memory", Darrel? (I know that you're lurking in the shadows)
2 & 4 Day Practical Rifle
Only took these courses once each, can't wait to do it again. Our instructor was one of the top rated sharpshooters in the US, the man was an AWSOME instructor.
4 Day Tactical Shotgun
This was an AWSOME course, can't wait to do it again. Most shooters don't have a clue what their shotgun is capable of, until they attend a course like this.
I could list off all of the names of instructors, and hours spent in private lessons, but who really cares? Name dropping is just another form of "hey, look who I am". I never believed in it, the proof is in the pudding. Rich listed off some pretty good compliments of the ranges that he's been to, I can say the same about Front Sight & all of it's instructors.
Dr. Piazza has a pretty unique approach to the whole firearms training industry. 99.9% of the people that attend his courses firmly believe that it is a GOOD approach. But, there will always be that 0.01% that have more anal fortitude than open mindedness. It is that 0.01% that I sincerely pity. I'm not here to offend any of TFL's members, but some of them DO offend me. To that, I will most likely offer rebuttal, until it starts looking like a squabble during 1st grade recess. I think that it reached that point at the end of the post just before this one.
Good day gentlemen
FF,
Nevertheless, you have ignored the substance of my post, in favor of attacking me personally yet again. Fine.
Quid pro quo, but directed at the Iggster, not you, unless you are he...
You wrote:
"IMO, Dr. Piazza has taken the best from the hundreds of different courses that he has attended, and packed it all together for the BEST bang for your buck. "
I say again: Iggy has no combat/real world experience.
He "borrows" from those that do (and many who don't), and regurgitates :barf: the info in whatever form he feels is expedient.
Again, BWAHAHAHAHAHA!
ROTFLMAO
He has acquired some skills perhaps, but no practical experience to leaven them with.
Crikey, my wife has more combative experience than Iggy...
(She's a redhead, draw you own conclusions)
I know that everyone that spends their hard earned money on training wants desperately to feel that have not wasted their money, so you are to be commended for fiercely defending your investment, regardless of its intrinsically low value.
You can continue to bang your bucks however you like, but I will save mine for training with men (or women) that have the real deal.
BTW, I am a fifteen weapon combat master, so I outrank Iggy.
Nevertheless, you have ignored the substance of my post, in favor of attacking me personally yet again. Fine.
Quid pro quo, but directed at the Iggster, not you, unless you are he...
You wrote:
"IMO, Dr. Piazza has taken the best from the hundreds of different courses that he has attended, and packed it all together for the BEST bang for your buck. "
I say again: Iggy has no combat/real world experience.
He "borrows" from those that do (and many who don't), and regurgitates :barf: the info in whatever form he feels is expedient.
Again, BWAHAHAHAHAHA!
ROTFLMAO
He has acquired some skills perhaps, but no practical experience to leaven them with.
Crikey, my wife has more combative experience than Iggy...
(She's a redhead, draw you own conclusions)
I know that everyone that spends their hard earned money on training wants desperately to feel that have not wasted their money, so you are to be commended for fiercely defending your investment, regardless of its intrinsically low value.
You can continue to bang your bucks however you like, but I will save mine for training with men (or women) that have the real deal.
BTW, I am a fifteen weapon combat master, so I outrank Iggy.
"Nevertheless, you have ignored the substance of my post..... blah, blah....blah"
I'll let it die, hypocracy is obviously accompanied by a deaf ear. :barf:
Dr. Piazza has literally tens of thousands of more-than-satisfied customers, so any time he is slandered you can bet that someone will pop up in his defense.
I've been off of this board for many months, so pardon me for taking the bait when it trolled by. My appologies to any whom I might have offended, it surely wasn't my intent to do so.
Rich, the comment about "name dropping" really wasn't a cheap shot at your reply to the question asked, please don't take it that way. I respect you.
.....but , in this case, "where there's smoke, there's fire" sounds a little on the side of "guilty until proven innocent". The fact is, there is a guy hiding in the bushes frantically rubbing two sticks together with the hopes of making it seem like there is fire
I'll let it die, hypocracy is obviously accompanied by a deaf ear. :barf:
Dr. Piazza has literally tens of thousands of more-than-satisfied customers, so any time he is slandered you can bet that someone will pop up in his defense.
I've been off of this board for many months, so pardon me for taking the bait when it trolled by. My appologies to any whom I might have offended, it surely wasn't my intent to do so.
Rich, the comment about "name dropping" really wasn't a cheap shot at your reply to the question asked, please don't take it that way. I respect you.
.....but , in this case, "where there's smoke, there's fire" sounds a little on the side of "guilty until proven innocent". The fact is, there is a guy hiding in the bushes frantically rubbing two sticks together with the hopes of making it seem like there is fire
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