From todays wire: GAO Warns of Sniper Rifle Sales

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GAO Warns of Sniper Rifle Sales

By JIM ABRAMS Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Military sniper rifles like those used to stop Iraqi tanks during the Gulf War are now in the hands of thousands of civilians, including suspected terrorists and drug dealers, according to congressional investigators.

Agents from the General Accounting Office, the investigative wing of Congress, found that long-range, armor-piercing .50-caliber rifles are readily available through dealers, gun shows and the Internet. Buyers only need to prove that they are 18 years old and don't have a criminal record.

The agents also told a Democratic-organized hearing Monday that sellers of armor-piercing ammunition used in the semiautomatic weapons were willing to do business with them even when the agents, pretending to be buyers, said they wanted to attack armored limousines or ``take a helicopter down.''

GAO agent Robert Hast said the long-range weapons gained popularity after they were used to attack Iraqi tanks in the 1991 Persian Gulf War. The weapons are highly accurate up to 2,000 yards -- meaning a marksman could stand at the Lincoln Memorial in Washington and hit a target at the Pentagon in Virginia -- and can be effective at distances of 7,500 yards.

Most deer hunters, by contrast, shoot at ranges of 150 to 200 yards.

Gast said that because gunmakers are not required to provide information on the caliber of weapons they sell, it's not clear how many of the high-powered weapons are in circulation. But one major producer sold more than 2,800 to civilians in the 1987-98 period, he said.

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms has tracked several of those sniper rifles to a Mexican drug cartel, suspected terrorists, a mentally ill cop killer and the Branch Davidians during the 1993 siege near Waco, Texas.

``There is a subculture growing in this country about the use of these weapons,'' said Tom Diaz of the Violence Policy Center, calling them ``the ideal tool for assassination and destruction.''

Diaz urged Congress to pass legislation putting .50-caliber rifles under the same restrictions imposed on machine guns and weapons of war, and banning armor-piercing ammunition.

Rep. Rod Blagojevich, D-Ill., who commissioned the investigation with Rep. Henry Waxman, D-Calif., plans to offer legislation restricting sales of the weapon.

James Schmidt, head of an Arizona ammunition manufacturer and a director for the 50-Caliber Shooters Association, said the rifles were not a social threat because they were heavy, costly at more than $6,000 and difficult to use for rapid-fire shooting. ``This is not a rifle that one would carry very far,'' he said.

Diaz said the weapons were being sold in ``an increasingly weird cultural context'' that ``glorifies the sniper mystique.''

He said two .50-caliber sniper rifles were used by the Branch Davidians in the 1993 siege near Waco, Texas, one reason law enforcement officials had to use armored personnel carriers.


AP-NY-05-04-99 0226EDT


Copyright © Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.



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I like guns!
 
Diaz is an idiot. The Brance Davidians used no .50 caliber arms during the attack by the fedgoons. If they had of used them, the fedgoon death toll would have been much higher. Do you remember the first day videos? Where the fedgoons were shooting at the B/D's from behind their cars? If the B/D's had used .50's at that point, how many fedgoons would have been there shooting at them?

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Ne Conjuge Nobiscum
 
And the media portray the political right as paranoid?! Based on this article, I'd say the left is a much better candidate.
 
The facts are wrong, as well (as they usually are from these freaks). The .50 cannot stop "tanks". At closer ranges, it can be used on poorly shielded APC's. At distance (2,000 yards), it can only be used on "soft" targets like trucks.
 
I followed the link from the rifle forum to the Video made by the USMC to show how effective the .50bmg sniper rifles can be. Pretty damn good video I thought.

The problem is that they document the abilities with Military Rounds, SLAP, API, etc.. stuff that Civilians would not only have a hard time finding, but would cost about $15+ a round (from what I have seen at Gunshows...).

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-Essayons
 
Between the high retail price of one of these rifles ($5000+), the cost of ammo ($3+ per round) and the lack of anyplace nearby to shoot this thing, I never really had much interest in obtaining one.
However, after viewing the video demonstration that Sen. Waxman has at his web site ( www.house.gov/waxman), I WANT one! I don't know what I would do with it, but I can worry about that some other time.
I doubt that my reaction is what Waxman intended with this latest crusade, but that will no doubt be the result with this fresh publicity coupled with the threat of a ban.
As for any "increasingly weird cultural context", it seems more apparent every day that Wash. D.C. is ground zero for that.
 
I just got my tax refund, and if I didn't have a marriage coming up to pay for, I'd go right out to buy one... If the Detroit lawsuit hadn't shut down the local gun show. The Gibralter trade center promised never to permit another gun show, in return for being dropped from the suit. So much for my monthly fun.
 
The Davidians did have .50 Barretts at Waco. One of the ATF agents who was killed there was struck by a .50 round which penetrated the car he was behind.
 
SKN,

I've heard that, but I have also heard that it is nothing but a rumor. Anybody got anything concrete on that?
I've always felt like if it were really true, we'd've seen pictures of the hole through the car and been told about these horrible "terrorist weapons" a long time ago by the media.
 
This one just one more approach to disarming us. There have been no crimes utilizing one of these, but of course Diaz has just got to plant the thought in some nut's mind to do it and start a panic in the minds of non-gun folk.

The .50 is a relatively easy target....not too many around, expensive and specialized....its made for their patent arguements in terms of impractical for hunting and most sporting purposes.

Generate a panic or fearful concern, get it banned and then they can amend its particular law to include ALL large calibers next year or the year after. One at a time guys, thats all they need to do; just make a precident

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"
 
My experience with the .50 cal was with the M2 Browning machine gun when I was in the Army. I still remember throwing the reciever on my right shoulder, the barrel on my left and having to hump the heavy sucker down to the motor pool.
I don't even what to think about shooting that round out of a rifle.
I don't need one and I don't want one. But I'll be damned if I'll stand idley by and let them Ban it! If we let them get away with this, we open the door to calling any scoped high power rifle a "Sniper rifle."
 
Reference to the Barrett .50s used by the Davidians at Waco can be found in the
transcripts of the Congressional hearing
about the incident, the critique prepared by independent consultants, and the ATF's final and voluminous report on the event.

My info about the fatality, to ATF SA
LeBeau I believe, comes from my
conversations in '95 with ATF SAs James
Spence and George Halliday who were
participants in the raid. More fatalities were avoided because the Barrett
gunner(s) were among the first to be
neutralized by agents' counter-fire.

The presence of the Barretts did receive
some print media mention at the time of
the raid and during the siege but after
the conflagration, much more attention
was paid to the handling of the incident
by Federal LE.


[This message has been edited by SKN (edited May 05, 1999).]
 
OK, say you got one o' these big beasts, and sales of the ammo just got banned.

What are you gonna do?

You're gonna go buy one of the new barrels in .30-cal that sure as hell somebody's gonna produce, you're gonna neck down the shells and produce a wildcat that'll fling a 200grain .30-cal boat-tail at around 8,000fps. The sources for ammo will pull the shells and sell the brass pre-necked for the new round, and you'll STILL be able to vaporize stuff out to a mile or so?

The reduced brass stress means they should last half of forever in such altered fashion...

I mean, these clowns seriously underestimate our desire to have cool toys to play with. Look at the 10-rd mag limit, and the wonderful new array of CCW-capable handguns it spawned. We now have .357 snubbies, 10-shot 9mm and 40mm no bigger than a .380, etc.

God only knows what this .50-cal ban will spawn...

Jim March
 
Jim: I think you'd have to do a bit more than THAT if you want a bullet traveling at 8000 fps! (And how many times were you planing on using that barrel, anyway?) In space research, when they've had to simulate meteors, they've had to use gas guns using hydrogen or helium, to get the speed of sound in the gas behind the projectile high enough.

Think there'd be a market for a 8000fps varmint gun? It might be feasible to build one.
 
I read some articles on the .50 Cal. Club, and they are NOT the kind of things that you carry around and setup to shoot in 30 seconds.

Just going by memory, what sticks out is:
800 grain bullets
13,000 ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle
twice the energy at 1000 meters of .338 Win Mag
Raw recoil of over 1000 ft/lbs, tamed by muzzle recoil reducer and sandbags, but still fired from the shoulder
Bolt/stock is the same piece, removable from the rear to insert next round
Lightest weight class was 18 lbs (entire gun setup), up to over 25 lbs
Barrel length around 36"
Most impressive => 8" groups at 1000 meters! (around .6 miles)
Wind drift at that range with 10 mph cross wind was 36" +/-

Sniper Rifle, maybe.
Quick fire, no.
Easy to manuver, not even close.
Outlawed, probably, unless we help keep them alive.

[This message has been edited by BigFang (edited May 05, 1999).]
 
8000 fps WOW …

You would not even need to hit the target as the shock wave generated from such a projectile would make a near miss lethal as well.

As far as .50 cal against tanks in the gulf war … targets included sighting apparatus and portals for heavy armor. However, I do not know if any ever actually engaged.

Waco … hum … probably should not say this (just hypothetical). If I were surrounded by a ring of vehicles at a distance of 1000m or so and was determined to resist to the end and had .50 rifles. What would I do ?


[This message has been edited by Scott Evans (edited May 05, 1999).]
 
I've never fired one of these, but doesn't it seem that if the guy manning it was killed at Waco someone else would have jumped in behind it eventually?

BTW, is this where the assertion of .50 caliber machine guns came from? I've never heard anyone explain why the ATF said there were .50 caliber machine guns in the compound.
 
Basically, they said it because it made them look really brave, explained why they got beat back, and made the Davidians seem very threatening. I hope you didn't thing they said it because they thought it was true!
 
The assertion of .50 cal. "machineguns" was made by the press who, at the time, were not sufficiently informed about what other weapons systems could fire that cartridge and probably extrapolated from what they were told was the purpose of the raid: siezure of illegal weapons that included 'machine guns'.

A .50 calibre shoulder fired weapon is heavy and _not_ easy to shoot when compared to say, an AK, AR, Galil, or Ruger Mini-14, all part of the Davidian arsenal. Add to that the fact that the gunner would be the focus of counterfire. These are factors which would likely lead to some trepidation on the part of others to take up that arm in the middle of a raging gun battle. I believe at some point during the siege new gunners for the weapon(s) would have been enlisted.
 
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