From Concealed to first shot time?

H

HighValleyRanch

New member
At the last CCW class, it was mentioned that the average time for most LEO's in presentation to first shot was around 3 seconds.
It takes over .25 second for the recognition, about 1 second to react to gripping the firearm, and the rest for clearing and presentation, sight picture and trigger control.

We all did time and my fastest from a thumb break type with my glock was 2.7 seconds. The RO did 2.2 seconds ad someone else with an open did 2.5.

The slow people were in the 4 to 5 second range. So do you think that the 1.5 seconds is going to make that much difference in real life.
Of course someone could cover alot of ground in 1.5 seconds, but there are some many variables.
Should the method of concealment, the choice of weapon enter into this 1.5 seconds given most situations?

I used to carry the glock in a pocket holster which is much slower than the 2.7 second draw from a pancake waist, but then the advantage of a pocket is that you could have you hand already on the gun in a confrontational situation without giving away the fact that you are carrying.
 
i carry in the back pocket, and practice point shooting, and i start firing as soon as the gun clears my hip. i figure this way i can be putting rounds on target before the bg even realizes i have a gun.

so my time is pretty good, havent actually timed my self lately tho.
 
At the last CCW class, it was mentioned that the average time for most LEO's in presentation to first shot was around 3 seconds.
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I'm gonna dispute those times.

Our (Anchorage Police Dept) qualification times for pairs and fts drills was 1.75 - 4.00 Seconds depending on the range. The 4 sec drill was FTS, draw, two in the body, one in the head. The other times, 1,75 -3 were pairs.

(We didn't use any single round drills in our qualification). The course was designed for revolvers but later was used for pistols.

I'm quite a bit older now but still used the corse to qualify for HR218 carry.

Heck I can even get my 643 out of my pocket and fire under 3 seconds.
 
dispute you can!

I agree that this sounds slow, but in reality you are talking about many LEO's that do not practice, elderly people qualifying for CCW, and most not even practicing any presentation drills on their own.

We are not talking about the fast draws, the hot shots, etc.
And the RO speaking is the person qualifying most of the local departments, so it is straight from the horse's mouth.

So is 3 seconds acceptable or faster than most given your experience?
The difference between your pocket draw and 4 seconds is one thousand one.
What I am asking is that if choosing between methods of concealment, weapon choice, should I be that concerned with a one second difference?
 
, elderly people qualifying for CCW
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Hey, careful there, ............I resemble that remark.

I agree that this sounds slow, but in reality you are talking about many LEO's that do not practice,
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We had quite a few (as do most departments) cops that didn't do any shooting other then the required qualification.

We did monthly qualification and few officers (even those who didn't shoot much) had problems making the time and the distances involved.
 
Just how important IS speed?

I will speak from no basis of actual experience ever having to actually present any weapon for self-defense. So, you can discount my thoughts if you want.

I believe that very seldom does a self-defense situation develop in a vacuum. There are usually signs that a situation is emerging. The aware citizen, therefore, has time to prepare (unholster if necessary) a response or avoid.

My carrying is mostly in the woods. I try to stay aware of what my surroundings tell me. When I feel like I may be close to a bear or other danger I may even unholster, probably cutting my presentation time in half or a third. I doubt I would behave any differently if I was in a restaurant parking lot in town (but more discreetly) if I detected a danger. But in town or in the woods, my first instinct is to assess, identify, avoid and defend against, the threat.

I know myself well enough that if I ever had to react swiftly by executing a fast draw from a condition of surprise, I would probably shoot myself in the foot. So, my battle plan is designed to play to my strengths and minimize the risks of my weaknesses.

Lost Sheep
 
What do you carry in the woods?

Lost sheep,
If you don't mind me asking......
What do you carry in the woods, seeing that you are in alaska?
And why do you choose that weapon?

What is your method of concealment?
 
Carry Choices

HighValleyRanch said:
Lost sheep,
If you don't mind me asking......
What do you carry in the woods, seeing that you are in alaska?
And why do you choose that weapon?

What is your method of concealment?
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Woods:

On my left hip; Counter Assault Bear Repellant (though I am considering UDAP when my present can reaches is expiration date)
On my Right hip; Ruger Super Redhawk in 454 Casull. 7.5" barrel in a cross-draw holster, appendix carry.

If only one, the spray. Spray is more effective at keeping people safe. Also, there is no worse way to ruin a good hike than a DLP shooting. You may leave a wounded bear on the loose and if you kill it, you have the duty to process the carcass and you don't even get to keep the cape. The hide and skull have to be turned over to the State.

In town:

I rarely carry. But I have used pocket carry (winter jacket) for a Star PD or Colt Officer's model (both are 45 ACP) In the summer, a variety of inside the waistband nylon holsters none of which have been entirely satisfactory.

I believe in the big bullet theory, though I have a couple of .357 magnum revolvers (Security Six in 2.75" and 4" and a couple of SP101s) with an upside-down shoulder rig that, unfortunately leaves a bit of a bulge in my sweater or light jacket.

I choose the SRH in 454 over my SRH in 44 Magnum because it became available at an affordable price. Did I mention I believe in the Big Bullet theory? I would take a 480 Ruger if I could find one with a 5-shot cylinder. My shooting buddy chose a 500 S&W (he likes Smiths; I don't-too delicate innards for my taste).

I would buy a Super Redhawk chambered for the 500 Bill if they would ever make one. (The 500 Bill is a chambering of my own imagination, built on an extended Super Redhawk frame. The cartridge would be the same dimensions as, but 1/10 inch longer than, the 500 S&W Magnum cartridge.)

Obviously, I don't mind you asking.

Lost Sheep
 
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So do you think that the 1.5 seconds is going to make that much difference in real life.
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It can.

However, when it comes down to it, unless you are a freak of nature of Bob Munden proportions, you are not going to be able to outdraw a determined individual with a firearm already pointed at you.

It has more to do with the factor of distance rather than time. An individual with a firearm pointed at a target needs to move a total distance of about 1/4" to discharge his firearm on target, and he only needs to move one part of his body...the trigger finger. Anyone on the other side of that equation has to cover that same distance, plus the amount of distance to the gun and to presentation. That's a race that just can't be won given two equal opponents.

Fortunately, not every defensive situation is like that as the bad guy may be focused on another individual or direction, giving you the ability to start your movement undetected.

IMO, draw consistency takes precedence over draw time simply because you can't beat that .20-.25 reaction time for the average individual, and it is better to have a smooth consistent draw you can perform under pressure EVERY time as opposed to a "fast" draw you occasionally dork up.

Along with practice to develop a smooth and consistent presentation, I believe one should also think about and practice incorporating techniques that will allow you to mask your movement while you draw, like blading your body, or using some type of distraction, which can give you a little more time.

Speed is important, but consistency matters most imo...
 
Exactly blading my body. Say an armed thug is approaching me from 40ft. I will react in a manner of blading then putting my left hand up looking very afraid. I will plead with the man and tell him I am getting my wallet, please don't shoot me I have kids, etc. Hopefully this can get him to lower his guard a bit thinking he has already won the situation. However, as my hand was up and I was whining I would be drawing to try and catch him off guard. This is the best I can think of. I routinely practice getting my pistol out fast and have an average draw time of 2.0-3.5 seconds.
 
What about taking cover too. Everybodies so concerend just about fast drawing. Why no get behind something if possible at the same time?
 
In an unavoidable SD situation involving deadly force, the element of surprise is paramount. If at all possible take cover and then draw. Make your first shots count.

Fast draws are useless if you already have a weapon drawn on you.

And......practice, Practice, PRACTICE.
 
Getting off subject

I think this thread is getting a little off subject.
I didn't ask for tactics nor was there ever a hypothetical situation where I was asking about drawing while a gun was pointed at me!
Don't know where that all got started.

I am asking about whether a difference of 1.5 second in draw time is a consideration for choosing carrying method, i.e. IWB, OWB, pocket, cross draw, etc.

Yes, I do agree that given certain situations, movement can help with the difference in time, i.e. if someone is charging with a knife, then one could add to their time to present by moving.

Given the responses so far, I wonder how many people are really practicing their presentation techniques as regularly as their shooting?
How many people actually take the time to time their concealed to shot time from different types of carry?
 
I think this kind of discussion is pretty much useless. There are far too many factors involved. I certainly question a .25 second reaction time, even for a trained LEO in a street situation. In the tests mentioned, the armed person was ready, expecting a signal, and set to draw. There is no way a person not expecting trouble (and few of us, even LEOs, walk around on high alert at all times) will be able to recognize a problem, figure out its source, and decide that the answer requires deadly force.

And rare would be the real life situation where the LEO or armed citizen has his target directly in front, stationary, and not shooting back, the usual setup in "draw and fire" tests. More often, even if a shot is fired, and the LEO knows what it was, he won't know where the shooter is.

The most common situation where a LEO will draw his weapon involves a known danger, and a situation that has trouble all over it, like a raid, an attempt to arrest, or other circumstance where the LEO should already have his/her gun in hand.

The most dangerous is the routine traffic stop, where rules generally prohibit the officer from drawing his gun and ordering the driver or passengers out of the car and onto the ground (do that, and the driver turns out to be the mayor's wife!). There is not a lot can be done if what appears to be a normal traffic stop ends with the car driver lifting a gun and shooting the officer in the face; fortunately, that rarely happens.

IMHO, fast draw is something from the Old West (the movies, that is). Sure it is fun to play the game. Inspired by Bill Jordan and films of FBI practice, I did the fast draw and got pretty good at it. But even after I became a deputy, I never had any illusion that the practice would be useful in the real world, and it never was.

Jim
 
Useless?

Jim,
I have always admired your responses, But...
So it is useless to consider the advantages of how fast you can get your weapon out?
Shouldn't this just be as important as how well you can shoot your weapon?
Isn't this just as important a part of your tool kit, knowing what is the most effective way to carry.

Lets consider a couple of hypothetical situations where the draw can make a big difference:
1. A pit bull is 30 yards away and charging toward you or your little girl.
OOps, I didn't think learning how to present was all that important, and never thought this could happen, so oh well....
2. You are walking in the woods, and come across a bad tempered hog. Ah, dang, that gun is in the backpack, isn't it? Or maybe it's in my thunderwear.
No, good, it's on my OWB holster and I can get to it in a hurry! Good!

You get the idea. Sure these are just hypothetical, but they are much more likely senarios for me, living where I am, than running into a gun toting gang banger with his weapon drawn on me. So I do consider the method of carry and time to draw in my decisions.
So please don't call this topic useless.
 
Fast draws are useless if you already have a weapon drawn on you.
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Thats not true, we (APD) use to practice that all the time. There are ways and tricks.

But I'm not sure I want to get into that here.

NEVER GIVE UP, NEVER SUBMIT
 
kraigwy said:
...Thats not true, we (APD) use to practice that all the time. There are ways and tricks.

But I'm not sure I want to get into that here.
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Awww. The act (or art) of creating brief distraction...

Yup. That's another thread. ;)
 
So it is useless to consider the advantages of how fast you can get your weapon out?
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Not useless, just not normally useful. There is a difference. Going between a 1.5sec draw & fire to a 3 second draw & fire isn't going to be fast enough if someone already has the jump on you. I equate it to hunting and you suddenly have a deer pop up from the brush and look straight in your direction. Suppose the wind is right and you are motionless so the deer (let's say at 50 yards) doesn't know you are there. There is no frigg'n way you can raise your rifle and pop the deer before the deer sees you and runs back into the brush. (I know:o). But if you wait until the deer drops it's head to feed and you slowly pull up, you can get a shot.

Same deal with a hand gun and a BG. If they are looking at you, you ain't fast enough. If you can do it smooth and sure, when they are distracted for a second, then you have a chance. Or if you are smart like TylerD45ACP, and raise your hand to cover the motion and plead, say you have money, etc while you draw that probably will help greatly. But a big flurry of action will probably get you shot, stabbed, punched, etc.

Sure, there are probably some situations where it will make a big difference, but those aren't so commonly encountered. Don't stop practicing, but always use your head and get the gun out unnoticed if at all possible, then neutralize the threat. Just my opinion, but it's all I have!
 
The distraction thing sounds logical, and I have thought of that a long time ago, also the weak hand in the air, but a buddy said I could accidentally shoot myself in the hand pulling my gun up to shoot.

Back on topic:

I carry my S&W 638 Airweight snub .38 in my front pocket of lose fitting pants on my strong side (Right). If I turn my strong side away from sight as I have my hand in my pocket I can draw without them seeing my gun until about 1-2 seconds before I have them fixed. And I keep my hand on my gun in my pocket a lot of times so I can draw almost instantly.

Also if you have something in your hands like groceries you can throw it at the person before you draw as a distraction.

In the winter or fall (Cool weather) you can just keep your gun in your jacket pocket with your hand on the gun and you don't have to draw just shoot through your jacket pocket if they are close enough.:D
 
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