Friends has an attempted break-in last night.

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mongrel: "We gotta tighten up folks... I love firearms but I'm gonna draw the line somewhere and switch sides if this keeps up."

Sorry, mongrel, but I no longer buy your stories. My friend, something about you doesn't add up. You doth protest too much, methinks.

[This message has been edited by Jeff Thomas (edited March 13, 2000).]
 
Sorry it bothers so many people that I advocate personal responsibility for ones actions.Sorry that I think the bill of rights is as much a responsibility to other people as it is a document of rights for ourselves.
With rights come responsibility..

What i've seen here..the incidents arent as depressing to me as the responses are..Ive listened to people defend or bypass actions that are clearly unsafe, or unwarranted, under the guise of "its my right and i can do what I want"
I've got news for you ...you cant
Just like you cant scream "fire " even though we have a right to free speech
You cant incite a riot even though you have a right of assembly.
You cant be irresponsible with your right to bear arms in the same way.And even more so because of the finality of any mistakes you may make.

Something about me doesnt add up??what is it?Is it the fact that I dont want to see my right to bear taken away so I try to do something about it..??
I drive...but you wont see me for a minute defending a drunk or reckless driver.( I realize driving isnt a right in the constitution).All that doing that does is cause a crackdown on the whole.
Can you really defend..
*discharge as a means of clearing, because you couldnt handle your own weapon
*leaving firearms within reach of visiting children,or in plain veiw in an open unattended garage.
*brandishing a firearm against a person that tailgates you for 1/4 mile (less than 4 city blocks)?

They're wrong...thats the first thing we should say...thats the first thing we should correct..we need to police our own.

LEO's.....if your dept gets out of hand, outside people come in and chew you a new a**
Teachers...if your kids cant make the grade the state steps in and demands measures to make it so.
Gunowners...if we cant step up and confront wrong within our own ranks..HCI will do it for us.
Its happening now.It has happened ..and will continue.
Its not a matter of buying a double action here..its a matter of a father, who has an item that can kill others, who uses it even though he doesnt know how.Thats the outrage.
God forbid HCI would come and veiw some of these strings...they could hang us with them.

I am an advocate of the right to bear..but I'm also not beyond crackin' a head if they get stupid with a weapon

if that makes you feel uncomfortable or angry..tough.

to oleg volk...theres a poster named pluspinc that runs a range class of some kind in the metro area I dont know him...and cant vouch for his class, but I know its there..armored fire in blaine has quickdraw shooting clubs at a nice 50 yd indoor range.In the 50 yd range is is also a "movie shoot"...i dont know what theyre called...they play a movie and you shoot at the bad guys on the screen.Those are the only two things I know in the Mpls area that have shooting that comes close to "combat".
there used to be more ranges , but as the suburbs have expanded people have complained and ordinanced them out of existance.I dont recommend Bill's gun range or shop.

to DC..if you read my strings you would know I take people to ranges incessantly..but they clean my weapons first...they learn how to handle them unloaded...how to clear ,sight make safe, how they function...I must spend at least 3-4 hours before i'll let them go, first time, always on the house...and at the range I supervise ...If someone I knew fired to clear..I'd take their d*** weapon, the same way I'd take keys from a drunk driver.

[This message has been edited by mongrel66 (edited March 13, 2000).]
 
I would like to applaud those who encourage others to get professional training in the use of firearms.

I take new friends to the range whenever possible, but I never try to train them myself. I always ask a range coach to instruct new shooters because I know my limitations.

I enjoy shooting, and am comfortable with my abilities, but I know that the staff at the range are very good at what they do, and they seem to respect my decision to leave the training to those who are certified and experienced.

------------------
NRA/GOA/SAF/USMC

"Is your church BATF approved?"
 
mongrel-
How's life, my friend? :)
Seriously, your difference of viewpoint is welcome here. However, as your viewpoint is controversial, don't be surprised at controversy.

I'd like to respond to a couple of your points if you don't mind:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Can you really defend.. discharge as a means of clearing, because you couldnt handle your own weapon [/quote]DC's correct. The guy did safe the weapon in a safe manner....given his skill level. He recognized what he did not know and acted appropriately. The test of the man is whether he seeks further training...that is the demonstration of personal responsibility. Same as a mother or father learning to be responsible parents...there is no manual. You have to recognize when you're over your head and try to get ahead of the learning curve best you can. Same as the individual who's first vote drives home the lesson that next time he'll know the issues better. Can you denounce the latter two?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>brandishing a firearm against a person that tailgates you for 1/4 mile (less than 4 city blocks)?[/quote] "Brandishing is a PC term which means "OH MY GOD, someone saw your gun!!!!!". Let's avoid it. The lady didn't point it at the guy. The lady didn't flip him off with the other hand. The lady may have exhibited poor judgement (I think so), but she placed no one in danger. Had she sped up to 85mph to get away from the truck, would you have the same outrage? After all, it's probably more dangerous to others than removing a firearm from your purse.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>LEO's.....if your dept gets out of hand, outside people come in and chew you a new a**[/quote] Except we don't generally condemn an LEO for simply drawing a weapon, do we? Think about the "why's" of that.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>....I take people to ranges incessantly..but they clean my weapons first[/quote] No offense, but this ranks as the most dangerous firearms act I've seen this week. Don't feel too bad as the week is young yet. ;) Not only is it dangerous to you to have others handle your disassembled weapon (parts disappear), but it serves no purpose to have the novice clean a weapon before shooting it...unless the purpose is to excersize control.
Rich Lucibella
 
from bottom to top
people i take shooting for the most part have never fired...the cleaning and reassembly take place at my house where i explain how the rifle functions..."see this is the bolt..."..it certainly is a control issue..firing live ammo is serious ...i wont have someone just take my weapon point and shoot...Having a novice view a gun as parts does serve a purpose..it allows a level of comfort with an item theyre afraid of.non shooters wont take an assembled gun from me...they dont want to touch it...it may go off...they just dont know...they will handle a barrel, a bolt,a stock,cleaning it shows care and concern for safety and function.as it goes back together there is overall less fear in handling the finished product.
EVERY military weapons class I've ever been to or taught goes thru the function of a weapon, disassembly, reassembly,immediate action, cycle of operation, proper sighting, BEFORE you go to range.nothing unsafe about that.Sorry you feel that's dangerous, maybe you should write the the DOD and have them change training tactics.

"LEO's if your dept gets out of hand.."
put it back in context with the other two statements and it will make more sense.

Brandishing :to move or wave , as a weapon.
You can take each little piece out of context if you want.I'll bring you back to point.please dont imply things I didnt say.
I didnt advocate her speeding up did I?I belive I advocated pulling over..getting out of the way..calling 911..
the mere act of pulling a gun DOES place people in danger..It increases the chances of it being used , it escalates the threat level, it eliminates possible avenues of deterence..but I already said that in my post.

Getting more training...I always advocate that..but I advocate calling 911 too.If he gets more training thats great...but it doesnt change what occured..the only law broken that evening ,with whats in the post, is illegal discharge of a firearm.I cant say what he did was right at all..given his training level he shouldnt have had a firearm in the house.
Anti gunners would have a field day with that y'know.
"minnesota man illegally discharges firearm in house with wife and child "..it would go on to say how he was helped to purchase the weapon by a member of TFL, how he was inadequately trained by the same...something about vigilanteism with gunowners,and how we dont call 911..
THATS the headline I want to avoid.this is a mostly all gunner site..if we dont step up among ourselves to be walking billboards for responsible gun ownership,we're gonna lose a right.there needs to be the outrage when we screw up.I was a Marine for years..if one of my men screwed up, he'd get thumped by us..taking care of problems on the inside preempts an agency coming in and doing it for you.Reaction is not a way to win.Preemption is.

i'll call a spade a spade,sorry if that offends people
 
mongrel, ever heard of a 'straw man' argument?

Per another site, '... the Straw Man fallacy is committed when an arguer distorts an opponent's argument for the purpose of more easily attacking it ...'. I remember it well from debating - it is often quite successful, but is greatly aided when your opponent, and audience, are ignorant of the technique.

You're grinding an ax like crazy about how unsafe many of us are, or how we accept what you typify as road rage behavior, etc. I think any reasonable read of TFL threads indicates the overwhelming support here for safety, training and respect for freedom and personal responsibility. There are a lot of very good people here.

TFL is not a monolith - it is a community of people, with an interest in firearms and the RKBA. We have a range of opinions. And you're entitled to yours as well.

Take care, friend.
 
Jeff Thomas-
Do that once more and we change your name to Occam's Razor! ;)

Mongrel-
I'd say "Touche", but you keep wavin' that thing without ever goin' steel on steel! ;) Seriously, don't hold back. We can take it.
Rich
 
It appears that too many of us have forgotten what it is like to delve into unknown regions. This friend of Oleg's entered new territory that night, with minimal knowledge and no practical experience.

We learn all that we can from those who have experience, but above all, we must learn to be flexible.

There is ablsolutely no way to cover all situations and plan for all responses.

What this guy did is quite commendable, and I'm sure he and his wife have learned some things that will stick with them for the rest of their lives. No one was hurt, the guy banging on the door left, and he safely discharged his weapon (and he is to be commended for that considering his knowledge and experience).

All of you who cry foul are doing so from experience that you have had, I do believe.

I can only hope any situation that I encounter could turn out so well.

So back off.

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John/az

"The middle of the road between the extremes of good and evil, is evil. When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!
 
I take the same approach as Mongrel66 in introducing a newbie to shooting: I spend some time going over the design and nomenclature of a firearm, I demonstrate loading and unloading, and I have the newbie practice dry firing before we go to the range. It's not very exciting, but I don't want to have any surprises or communication problems when the new guy has a loaded gun in his hands.
 
Oleg, have him check my schedule at www.plusp.com. I will give him a one day basic class FREE. If he doesn't do something he could end up in jail real easy here in Mpls. We have classes every few days and one weekends. GREAT choice for a gun I will note. He can also schedule right off the web page. Also have him read the free lessons area. Now he has no excuse for not getting proper training. We include shooting in low light and darkness. I'll even supply the ammunition.
 
Darrel,

Thank you. I will talk to him. I suspect that your course would be more useful than mine as you cover the legal aspects. I will try to get him more sure on the mechanical operation of the gun in the meantime.
 
OK, here's how I see it:

1. Going to the door with an inferior weapon, (knife) and without backup that's available (911) is clearly wrong. Obviously, this guy's MA experience led him to believe he could take on an unknown threat with a knife, and his experience with Ukrainian cops apparently soured him on that option. Fine, now he knows better. Problem solved.
2. Thumb-cocking the revolver is also clearly wrong. He knows it was wrong, admits his mistake, and vows to train in order to avoid making it again. Once again, problem solved.
3. Discharging to clear--this is what bothers me the most in your arguments, Mongrel. I see your point about what HCI would make of this and respond, so what? Let's face it, HCI makes whatever they want out of whatever is available. The bottom line is that you and I both know that what he did was perfectly safe, even if it isn't the preferred method. Maybe safer than using the thumb to decock. What you're talking about doing is for all of us here on TFL to PRETEND that it isn't safe and condemn the man on those grounds, in the hope that HCI lurkers would see such condemnation and back off. That isn't how it will happen. And if it were, I would still refuse to pretend that I agree with HCI when the facts are clearly against them, just because I'm afraid of their political clout. Such a move wouldn't be too far from simply starting to support and vote for anti-gun candidates and laws just to show the rest of the country that we're "responsible."

The responsible action was to do whatever had to be done in order to make sure that everyone in the house was safe, and he did it. Now he wants to learn to do it better. There is nothing more this man could do! I say WOO HOO!
 
I was going to leave this whole post alone...but please ...give me a break...
Do you discharge to clear at a range??
LEOs , do you discharge to clear?
Military ..do you discharge to clear?
When I was at the range "unload clear and lock " did not mean put a round downrange.
In the Corps that may have resulted in charges under the UCMJ..or at least a buttload of extra duty without time off.

You cant defend the action..He didnt know what he was doing..He shouldnt have had or responded with a loaded weapon..Thats the bottom line.

"The responsible action was to do whatever had to be done in order to make sure that everyone in the house was safe, and he did it. Now he wants to learn to do it better. There is nothing more this man could do! "

He did nothing...he went to the door with a gun he didnt know how to use..thats what he did..he didnt open the door..call police to remove a repeat threat..for all anyone would know the door knocker guy could have gone to the next house down the block and caused some actual damage..Our friend with the gun went back to sleep..
Yeah, I need a neighbor like that

You folks have kids..and you give them a gun when you feel they have the maturity to deal with it..you supervise..you lock up the gun when its not being used.
With an adult..they have the right to own..but not always the ability..so rather than saying well he did what he could, blah blah blah..think about why he had , at his level , a loaded gun in the first place, why was the loaded gun ,which he didnt know how to use,his FIRST recourse in an action.
Its not defendable..He FIXED it as best he could breaking only one law..thank god he didnt wake the neighbors, because in Minneapolis, you will be charged for that discharge.I can have someones broken arm "fixed " too..but I'll still go to jail for breaking it.
Bottom line still ..the gunowner was wrong.
 
Its not defendable..He FIXED it as best he could breaking only one law..thank god he
didnt wake the neighbors, because in Minneapolis, you will be charged for that
discharge.I can have someones broken arm "fixed " too..but I'll still go to jail for breaking it. Bottom line still ..the gunowner was wrong.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You know Mpls law? NO he would NOT have been charged as there was NO intent, a vital requirement for a law infraction. His effort was "reasonable" under the circumstances. And if convicted it is a fine of $100 for a misdemeanor. NO jail involved.
I had a female bring me a revolver that had the hammer back and was loaded and she had no idea what to do with the gun. She figured out after she pulled the hammer back and then saw it was loaded she had to do "something." I was very nervous during the process and guided her inch by inch until I could drop that hammer and then show her what to do if she ran into another situation like this. A son had left her the gun with no instruction and she thought she should have it "ready" and pulled the hammer back to "cock" the gun.
She was not wrong, just uneducated. If anyone was wrong it was her son. I had one fellow hand me 7 loaded handguns in the store one night. As fast as he handed them over I was unloading them. His logic was, " what good is a gun that isn't loaded?" Any gun store clerk can tell of being handed loaded guns by unthinking uneducated customers. I'm suprised how common it is in busy stores.
This guy had good intentions and good concerns and a good gun. Now he needs good education. Let's not deprive him of that.
NOBODY wille ever be involved in a similar situation and not make errors, including ME.
 
Y'all are hopeless...maybe not all of you...but enough

You remind me of college age kids..all the advantages of adulthood without taking the responsibility..

Whoever is in charge , remove my name from your list of subscribers.I don't want to be associated with this group.

It amazes me..just one excuse after another..anything to justify having a gun.
 
Mongrel66,

I think we all agree that this man made some mistakes. What more do you want? Should we form a lynch mob and drag him to the nearest tree? ;)

He didn't hurt anyone. He didn't even bother anyone. Ideally, he would have called 911 and not cocked his revolver. Then again, he could have done much worse, too. My guess is that with this experience and a little more training he'll become a safe shooter. So... what's the point of heaping condemnation upon him? When there are scores of people endangering the public by doing idiotic and/or evil things with guns every day, this incident doesn't seem like a worthy focus of outrage.

What exactly do you mean when you say we have to "tighten up"? I'm trying to understand your point of view but I need more specifics.
 
Actually, I AM in college. So if that means in your mind that you should disregard what I have to say, I guess there's nothing I can do about that.

But come on, Mongrel. As has been asked many times, WHAT do you want the guy to do? He made a lot of mistakes, and now he's going to fix them all. As much as you might like to, you cannot go back in time and fix it so the mistakes never occur, so what exactly do you propose that would be better than training to eliminate the mistakes he made and prepare for the next encounter? What do you expect us to say? That a person is an idiot because he isn't trained? That he should be barred by law from owning a firearm until he meets your standards?

And as for the discharging to clear, no, I don't think the military does that intentionally, but I do recall TFL members speaking of the barrels of sand used to clear M16s at the range. As I recall, the procedure mentioned was to point the weapon down into the barrel and pull the trigger before attempting to break it down, and there was hell to pay for the occasional "pop in the barrel" as he put it.

The point is, people make mistakes and the best you can do once it's been made is fix it. He's doing that, therefore he's doing the best possible thing. He doesn't need to be berated for that.
 
Gee Mongrel, you're sounding more like congress and HCI with each passing post. :(

Too bad. Life is full of mistakes and it's my understanding that we are supposed to learn from those mistakes that don't kill us.

If you've never made a mistake in your life, you've got a lot to learn.

Yes, the call for responsibility comes with the exercise of freedom and rights, and the exercise of responsibility is owning up to the mistakes that we make and taking steps to change. Such as what Oleg's friend is doing.

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John/az

"The middle of the road between the extremes of good and evil, is evil. When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!

[This message has been edited by John/az2 (edited March 17, 2000).]
 
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