Friend shot while on the phone

just for the record, you're not going to want to pass that board (libertypost) around much, if you can link the article somewhere else it might suit more. the following commentary doesn't help race relations much, especially with the race-based "survivor" starting up. scum comes in technicolor, and they all deserve swifter justice than the court system can deliver.

read the situation and hope for the best. i'd bet more people survive complying than not. if you draw and mess it up they're probably going to execute you rather than rattle off a few heading the other way. if the opening's there take it but bear in mind what you can and can't replace. the only reason i'd move up the force gradient without certainty of a violent intention would be if they were taking an interest in someone i cared about more than myself.
 
Most situations, before they happen, involve odds. Like, what are the chances of being disarmed and shot with your own gun when, had you been unarmed and complied, you would not have been shot at all. [Simplification; there ARE other issues.] In THIS case, in hindsight, there wasn't a lot of risk - they shot him anyway. Clearly, for this case, he should have been armed, should have resisted them, and should have shot and killed both of them. That is tactical and moral, advice, of course, not legal advice. For legal advice, get off the internet and see several lawyers who specialize in that sort of question - if you want legal advice.

Cost times probabilty versus reward times probability. I don't mean the actual reward, but your valuation of the reward. For instance, if I were sitting on a jury where the issue was what a man did to keep from dying, I would reasonably expect him to put the value of his own life over almost anything, even though some other folks wouldn't really care all that much. But you have to decide for yourself what your life is worth, and I won't be on the jury.

Good luck.
 
If I were armed, as I usually am, and this scenario occurred to me, I would have a hard time turning over my gun to someone that is holding me at gunpoint.

If they were searching me, there is no doubt they would find the gun and take it, leaving them with two guns and me none. Trusting the bad guy with your life is generally not a good idea, IMHO.

So I would de-escalate the situation if at all possible. If held at gunpoint, and being searched, I would attempt a defensive manuever while trying to pull my weapon while looking for cover. In this situation, probability dictates that I will indeed be shot. But punks with guns generally don't practice at the range, so probability also dictates the wound would not be a show-stopper and that I might have an opportunity for a quality shot.

It's all speculation of course. But there is no way I turn over my gun. If I subscribed to the "comply" camp, I would not carry a weapon.
 
If I were armed, as I usually am, and this scenario occurred to me, I would have a hard time turning over my gun to someone that is holding me at gunpoint.
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You've obviously never had someone holding a gun on you at arm's length. You have no choice. Yes, you have a hard time. I had a hard time turning over my money.

But you do what you're told.
 
I do not accept that you must comply. If that is the way you think, you should not carry a weapon as you are just aiding the BG by giving it up. And giving away money is drastically different than handing over something like a firearm they can use to execute you.

Perhaps it is just personal preference and choice. I have never been robbed at gun point. And I pray that the situation never arises to where I must use a firearm for self-defense. But I will not relinquish my firearm.

Should LEO's also comply when a BG confronts them with a weapon or threat?

As I said, I suppose it is simply a difference in mentality. No single thought more correct than the other.
 
I don't agree with you must comply either. It's situational I think. I wonder why the LEO's are not trained to give up their weapons? They must know something. I agree that it's prolly foolishness to draw on a drawn gun, but you could bolt. (some) criminals are not there to shoot you, just get some easy cash from one who's been condititoned to be passive. If you bolt they may walk away. If they do shoot, its 50/50 that they will even hit you. If you zig zag, you may cut that down even more. Be a hard target to hit.

Full compliance would not be a good idea because it leaves you at their mercy and no chance if they want to shoot you. If you at least run, you have a chance (plus still keep cash/weapon/etc.)

YMMV.
 
If that is the way you think, you should not carry a weapon as you are just aiding the BG by giving it up
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You're twisting the argument. We're not talking about carrying a weapon and having time to present lethal force. Don't twist my words.

I'm talking about somebody getting the drop on you, sticking a loaded gun in your face, and telling you to give him your gun. And he's going to watch every move you make.

And you're going to tell me you're going to pull your piece, bring it into play, and neutralize the threat before the perp can pull the trigger?

You're dreaming.
 
heres what i would do (im the expert of my own actions)
1) dont let them sneak up on you
2) run when you see the gun
3) shoot while you run to cover
4) dont give them the gun, they will kill you with your own weapon
(thats an embarassing way to die)

every situation's different but i dont want to be at their "mercy" know what i mean?
 
I'm talking about somebody getting the drop on you, sticking a loaded gun in your face, and telling you to give him your gun. And he's going to watch every move you make.

And you're going to tell me you're going to pull your piece, bring it into play, and neutralize the threat before the perp can pull the trigger?
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In this case the person submitted and was still shot.

If you could guarantee that submission would result in your remaining uninjured, then it's a different story. As it is, submitting comes with the real possibility of being shot anyway.

Statistically, your best chance of remaining uninjured is to resist with a firearm.

Temper that with the fact that it's not possible to determine in advance exactly what strategy will be useful in a given situation.

I'm certainly not saying that you should always pull a firearm and start blazing away, but I'm also not saying that you should always submit when someone gets the jump on you with a gun.
 
PinnedAndRecessed said:
You've obviously never had someone holding a gun on you at arm's length. You have no choice. Yes, you have a hard time. I had a hard time turning over my money.

But you do what you're told.
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You do what's right. I have never related this story on TFL before now. In the little fishing village of Niceville, Florida, in the year 1976, another American citizen, male, confronted me with a handgun. He demanded everything I had in my pockets. There were two accomplices, one man, one woman, who stood by and watched. They were about 35-40 feet distant, behind him and within my sight. The goblin walked up to me face-to-face and presented. Made his demand. I slowly reached around behind my strong side, under a light jacket and presented to him. I made a demand, "Lower your weapon." He did. Accomplices moved closer. I maintained. They stopped. Alpha Goblin withdrew. Accomplices withdrew. I let them go. Next time, who knows?

Do what you're told? Sheep talk. But understand what it is that you do. If you are not prepared to have your ticket punched, don't carry.

Many here post what they would do, if ... etc.

Train and think. Humans are the only animal on this planet that can decide what they will do in a given situation before it happens and then do it.

How do I say this? So many here have found a life on the internet. I hardly ever post in this forum. I'll say it this way: don't discount the animal inside you. The body can actually train the mind. But mindset is first. Be human. And be steadfast.

I am no gunfighter, I am just a human, a man, and I don't speak goblinese.
 
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Always submitting is the proper play.
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There you go, twisting the argument again.

I didn't say always submit. Bud posted that he resisted and won. But I'll wager dollars to doughnuts that Bud had trained for that possibility.

Sure, if you train for that, and are mentally ready for it, you might be able to pull it off.

But most of us aren't going to have any training other than the ridiculous classes we took for our CCL. And if a bad guy pulls a gun on that kind of mentality, the bad guy is going to get what he wants. You're going to freeze. You're going to think about how you're not ready to die. You're going to think about how you should have lived a better life. You're going to think about your children.

The last thing you're going to do is pull a John Rambo.
 
BTW, in my experience of being held up twice, the perps wanted to maintain a distance between me and them. Had I been carrying, they never would have known it. They only wanted my money.

Some of the posters talked as if the perp is going to frisk them and then find the gun. I suspect that the vast majority of cases are like mine. I suspect that the vast majority of cases, the perp with the gun never actually touches the victim.
 
thank you Bud for bringing up the difference between sheep and sheep dogs.

Run through various scenarios ahead of time,

My personal time to pull my weapon and gamble my life is if I am about to become a prisoner or hostage or my family is in immediate danger. At that point I plan ahead to go for broke. I stack the odds in my favor by continously training.
 
They are close enough to me for me to hand over my phone, right? That is important.

The number one rule of gun fighting is not "have a gun".

The number one rule of gunfighting is don't get shot.

If they are that close to me, I am going after their gun. It will be easier to get than my own, and by getting their gun, I have disarmed them. I will get my hands on it and if it is a semi-auto, throw it out of battery and cause a jam. If it is a revolver, I will be all over the cylinder. I will break fingers off their hands if I have to, but I will gain control of that gun. I will take the struggle to the ground if I have to, and kill if I have to, but I will control that gun.

Some may say it cannot be done, but action does beat reaction. There is a reason that law enforcement keeps their distance once they draw their gun.

I am not some super-ninja. I am simply a dad and a husband who wants to keep living. I am not so naive as to think I can gain a criminal's goodwill and not be killed simply by complying with their demands. They want a cell phone and some cash. I want my life. The best way to preserve my life is to gain control of the gun pointed at me.
 
Original Poster:
Let's say my friend was armed. When they were patting him for things to steal, they would have found the weapon (either in his pocket or on lower back) and taken it back to their thug projects up the street.
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The original poster proposed the "patting down" scenario, which is probably the reason so many "posters talked as if the perp is going to frisk them and then find the gun."

I don't know the statistics of "arms length robbery" vs. "frisk robbery." In my mind, this is beyond the scope of the argument, or "twisting," as you call it.

Pin:
You've obviously never had someone holding a gun on you at arm's length. You have no choice. Yes, you have a hard time. I had a hard time turning over my money.

But you do what you're told.
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There you go, twisting the argument again.

I didn't say always submit.
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Sounds to me like you are dealing in an absolute, which last time I checked equals "always." But maybe that's just me twisting again.

Furthermore, you have made two or three references in this forum to John Rambo and those that want to imitate him. Do you think everyone who has a gun and would stand up for themselves fantasizes about being Stallone? You presume a lot about people. You even presumed that I had no training.

This forum is certainly not a great scientific sample, however it has already yielded two different REAL stories about people who complied and were shot. It also yielded Bud's story about "defense" that worked out positively for him.
 
Didn't mean to offend. I was speaking in generalities.

I made an exception for those who have had training that targets the original poster's scenario. That probably represents a fraction of a percent of all citizens who carry concealed.

Probably 99.8% of all who CC have had no training beyond the impotent CCW classes we're required to take. That percentage will freeze. They'll be so afraid they'll be lucky if they don't wet their pants.

Yet many of them will post on an internet gun forum and detail how they will neutralize the threat with their bare hands, if necessary.

That's nonsense. That's Rambo.

If we try to do what Bud did we're just going to see a complete state of death.

Have you had such training? Would you describe specifically what training you had?
 
I was also speaking in generalities with several of my comments, including:
Me:
If that is the way you think, you should not carry a weapon ...
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These words did not translate properly. I certainly was not stating that YOU directly should never carry. I sincerely apologize if they came off as abrupt. I am truly sorry that you have been victimized and glad that no harm was done to you. It seems also that you really weren't hurt financially, so you are very lucky.

I do not feel as though I must defend myself by listing accomplishments. I will, however, tell you that while my first name is indeed John, my last name is not McClain or Rambo.

No one has ever said I resemble Chuck Norris or Jackie Chan. I'm not as cool as Clint Eastwood and not as nimble as a ninja.

I never claimed that I would disarm with my bare hands or shoot beams out of my eyes that instantly melt the BG's gun. My posts have revolved around the general idea that giving up my gun to the bad guy, who is already threatening my life with a gun, is only going to help him. This idealogy is based on common sense, not ninja training.

I'm a young father who will do whatever it takes to return home to his children. You assume that the assailant will not fire. I was raised in a home with 2 law enforcement officers. I always assume the worst in bad guys instead of the best.

You ask for proof from everyone, but throw out broad-based generalities like:
Pin:
Probably 99.8% of all who CC have had no training beyond the impotent CCW classes we're required to take.
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These are only my beliefs. You have your beliefs. No big deal.

I'm interested in seeing this thread continue, so I think a truce is probably in order.
 
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