Freedom under attack

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pax

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President Bush said on Tuesday that freedom itself was under attack. He spoke more truly than he knew.

Listening to the news, reading the pundits, and talking with people around town, I get the impression that a sizeable percentage of people would do anything to ensure that this sort of thing never happens again.

Everyone wants a little more security. And if that means less freedom, the argument goes, so be it.

Increased security on domestic flights means less freedom for passengers. It means more time at the checkpoints and more invasions of privacy. It means honest people being treated as criminals-before-the-fact, violating the assumption of innocence until proven guilty. It means accepting increasingly invasive measures which will do little to stop a truly determined terrorist and which will do much to give the terrorists exactly what they wanted in the first place.

What did the terrorists want? Why did they do this thing?

They did it because they hate America and they hate what America stands for. America stands for freedom and for wealth, for the rights of the individual over the power of the state, for religious tolerance, for peace in plenty.

They wanted to see us hurt. They wanted to see us cry. They got that, in spades.

But they also wanted to change us. To change our way of life. To change our society. Are they going to achieve that goal? They might.

There is no realistic way we can provide safety for all our people. Making sure that airline meals come with nothing but plastic spoons isn't going to do it. We can't afford to hire as many security guards, policemen, undercover agents, and detectives as it would take.

So what can we do?

Realistically, we can't afford to hire all the manpower it would take to protect our citizens. We neither can nor should surrender our freedoms for simple physical safety, undermining our way of life.

Our founding fathers faced a similar dilemma. How can a government protect the common man?

Answer: it can't. The best it can do is enable the common man to protect himself, then stay out of his way while he does it. That's why they passed the 2nd amendment, allowing individuals to arm themselves against a dangerous world.

Limiting our freedoms gives the terrorists what they wanted, and it won't provide the safety we need. Increasing our freedom is a far safer option.

pax
 
Right on.
The security measures we have did not work, so what is the solution? Use more of the same! Sounds like gun control: It does not work, but when it fails, we get more of it.
Not only that, but these guys may have gotten on using airline tarmac passes, so all the security inthe world would not have affected them. As usual, they found a way around the law, just like criminals do time and again. All the security in the world will not stop someone who does not go through security.
It is a radical concept to most people, but the answer here is obviously not more of the same, but something different. And that something different is instead of disarming more, giving passengers and flight crews more means to fight back.
 
When I read George Orwell's 1984 many years ago I thought, "There is no way the American people would let something like this happen." But now that I am older and more experienced I think not only will they let it happen, they will MAKE it happen. The people will demand that leaders form such a government. It makes me sad.

Tstr
 
After this, the 10th anniversary of the attack, I believe everyone needs to reread what Kathy wrote shortly after 9/11.

A more prophetic claim would be extremely hard to raise.
 
Al Norris said:
A more prophetic claim would be extremely hard to raise.
Agreed 110 percent.

Some people seem surprised that there weren't any major terrorist attacks/incidents yesterday, on the tenth anniversary of 9/11. Personally, I wasn't surprised. The government, of course, is using that fact to tell us that it's proof all this security theater must be working. I think the truth is that the terrorists didn't see any need to try. Why should they? They've already WON. They've bankrupted our country and put our fundamental civil rights in the trash can.

They don't need any more suicide bombers. They had won the day we created the Transportation Sex-offender Authority.
 
All these steps up in security and still the most effective guards have been alert citizens. The shoe-bomber, crotch-bomber, and Times Square bomber were all thwarted thanks to people being aware of their surroundings and taking the appropriate action. I suppose the terrorists' questionable bomb making skills didn't hurt either.
 
Hear, hear!

They had won the day we created the Transportation Sex-offender Authority.

I refuse to fly because I refuse to be subjected to a pat-down.

Limiting our freedoms gives the terrorists what they wanted, and it won't provide the safety we need. Increasing our freedom is a far safer option.

They are called terrorists for a reason. Terror being the optimal portion of the word. By their actions before, on, and after September 11, 2001 they have succeeded in sowing terror to such an effect that the majority of Americans are willing to surrender the very freedoms that this country was founded.
 
Back a few years ago, . . . General Sherman took off the "gloves", . . . and fought, burned, and looted his way across the South, . . . and in so doing, he and his men took the fight out of Dixie.

President Truman took of the "gloves" and gave wholehearted permission to hit Hiroshima and Nagasaki, . . . and in so doing, he and a handful of airmen took the fight out of Japan.

Until we have a leader in power that is equally decisive, . . . and willing to take of the "gloves", . . . the drug war, . . . the war on terror, . . . the war on poverty will all be wars ending like Korea: a stalemate where the war essentially continues with all sides claiming victory.

Rant off

May God bless,
Dwight
 
Geez if everyone in America has half as patriotic as the people on here, it would be the best trouble free country in the world.

A lot of the people in my country don't like Americans, but at least they stand up for what they believe in and don't let them selves be trampled on without a fight.

Not like the tree hugging greenies in my country, that some idiot put in power.
 
Lincoln knew!

From a speech by Abraham Lincoln at the Young Men's Lyceum of Springfield, Illinois, in January 1838. Lincoln was 29 years old.

"At what point, then, is the approach of danger to be expected? I answer, if it ever reach us it must spring up amongst us. It cannot come from abroad. If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide. "
 
The OP was about our civil rights after the 9/11 incident. Cease and desist the discussion of religion and conspiracies.

I'm deleting such.

Glenn
 
They did it because they hate America and they hate what America stands for. America stands for freedom and for wealth

There's that. Also I do think it has a great deal to do with our foreign policy, I do not think they are attempting to change it, but rather make us (as a people) pay for actions taken in the past.

Our approach to foreign policy, quick historical overview:

Monroe Doctrine: This side the the pond is ours, stay out.

Roosevelt Corollary: This side the the pond is ours, and we reserve the right to "stabilize" them.

"Good Neighbor" Policy: Oops, we didn't know the guy we put in charge of your country was a bloodthirsty nutjob. Sorry 'bout that, we'll leave you guys to it now, good luck with the coup.

Israel, 1947-present: So, we're going to take a few square miles of a few of your countries, displace some of your people, recreate a country that hasn't existed for a few hundred years, train its forces to repel any attempts to retake lost territory, give them some nuclear weapons, and provide support just about any time they ask.

Korea, Vietnam, Iraq (both times)

These are just a few examples of policies and procedures that put us in a very poor world view - with those outside Western Europe, that is, who have all had imperial stages of their own.

The aforementioned statements are not intended to be inflammatory, unpatriotic, etc.

But I believe that the purpose was to in effect punish the American people for the actions of its leadership in the most profound and public way possible and imaginable. It was and is an atrocity that should not go unanswered, that much is a given, but should also be answered in the right manner.

The limits placed on the freedoms of Americans out of fear is the wrong course.
 
The prescience of that post marks Kathy's wisdom. The freedoms we have lost do not end with airport pat downs, or even with warrantless wire taps. I have no sympathy for real terrorists, but allowing detention without trial means that the government has in its power the ability to detain anyone indefinitely without trial by declaring them to be a terrorist. That should scare us all.
 
They've already WON.
Sarcasm I hope:confused:
I refuse to fly because I refuse to be subjected to a pat-down.
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To me, this is the attitude that would denote losing. Think about it. the idea was to strike fear, to stop doing the things we as Americans enjoyed. If we show that we won't stop doing these things IN SPITE OF the restrictions, IN SPITE OF the fear,the anger, the indignities, THEY lose because it shows we cannot be changed. Imagine a terrorist observing at the airports two people getting patted down. One protests, leaves, the other, holds her head up and smiles. Which do you think the terrorist takes more pleasure out of seeing? Which p****s him off?
 
The question of how to improve our national security while protecting our rights and civil liberties is not a new one, it merely has become more prominent as events, politics, and technology have stressed the issue.

There is an intense debate in Washington and around the nation about how to balance these two essential components of our nation's survival.

---------BREAK---------------

Regardless of whether you are pro-war or anti, republican or democrat, whatever.. there is something that happened under the Bush administration that not many people give our govt credit for. We did something crazy. I mean, truly crazy. We invaded and entirely took over two countries. We lost what, 5000-some Soldiers' lives, tens of thousands more injured. We spent trillions of dollars and nearly bankrupted not only ourselves, neglecting education, infrastructure, and a ton of other important domestic issues, but contributed to unsettling the entire global economy.

We did all of that... because of a terrorist attack where a few thousand civilians died.

Think about that for a second. A few thousand civilians died in an attack, and we send double that many Soldiers to die, ten times that many to be injured. A re-construction project that might cost a hundred million, and we spend trillions on wars to overtake two countries on the opposite side of the planet, and in many ways ruin our reputation around the world.

Now that's crazy.... but sometimes, and this is just my opinion, but sometimes you gotta be a little crazy. You gotta show your enemy that you are WILLING to do those crazy things, and to follow-through until the end.

Look at the last ten years of the perspective of Iran, Syria, or N Korea. They clearly see what has happened. They know that if they are tied to an attack even a fraction of the magnitude, that the USA might just do something crazy to them.

Think about it from the perspective of Russia. After decades, Russia was unable to win the fight in Afghanistan, and continues a low-level conflict in the northern Caucauses, Georgia, and the Balkans. I suspect they were embarassed by the USA's ability to start to determine the future of Afghanistan within a year of putting boots on the ground. But it demonstrates the USA's unprecidented capability to project joint force when provoked. Perhaps in some way it will serve to improve our relations with Russia, who we need to build bridges and partner closely with in the future, as they could be tremendous allies.

It's a shame that there were smears on our actions like those at Abu Ghraib, overt and non-productive use of torture, wiretapping our own people, and so forth. It's unfortunate, but I chalk it up to the fact that everything relies on people, and when people are involved, nothing will ever be perfect.

We are winning, and continue to win, because the goals of the terrorists were not realized, and we will survive while they wither and die. The govt can't protect the common man, but it must protect the nation's borders. In our modern world, those borders are not just goegraphical lines. They are economic, they are in cyberspace, they are in our water supply, our air supply, or power grid. They are in our schools and our airports and shipping centers.

So maybe I got a little off track there, but the point is, sometimes you gotta be a little crazy. The tough part is balancing that with your core belief system, and in the USA, we are struggling with that right now. But what makes this nation so great, is we're able to have that discussion without fear of reprocussion. Online, in schools, at work, around the dinner table, and on the floor in Congress.

I'm just a simple guy with two thumbs, but I think we're gonna be just fine.
 
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Ringolevio said:
And I don't think anybody "gave" the Israelis nuclear weapons.
To clarify briefly, yes and no. Materials and assistance were provided by the British, French, & US. But I believe all work was done internally.

Responding to anything else will either get the thread locked or posts deleted. So let's go with I respect your views and accept that you may know some details that I do not.

To get back to civil rights post 9/11:
Imagine a terrorist observing at the airports two people getting patted down. One protests, leaves, the other, holds her head up and smiles. Which do you think the terrorist takes more pleasure out of seeing? Which p****s him off?

I don't protest, I just don't fly anymore. First it was bad enough when they went through bags that had just gone through x-ray and a metal detector. That was standard practice for years. Then came the limits on size of toothpaste tubes and such were a pain in the butt. But the only times anyone is patting me down is after I have been Mirandized. Now you go through a full body scanner at some airports. Where does it end?

Its just not worth the aggravation.
 
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Booker_t; I agree with every single word you posted, just not every single "context" of the phrase, "Sometimes you gotta get a little crazy." But otherwise, very well put. That's a nice piece of writing.

Now, if only the people that smashed this country's economy in order to show our enemies just how crazy they are would now just admit it and stop blaming it on everyone else.

Oh, wait, I gotta post something about guns...

Long live the 2nd amendment!
 
As an International Security Analyst who lives and works in the Middle-East, let me adjust the record please.

"Nobody was "displaced". Arabs were free to live where they had lived, and although many left when the State of Israel was created (on land where Jews had lived before Islam existed), many remained, are citizens of Israel, and even serve in Israel's Knesset (Parliament).

Not true:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_villages_depopulated_during_the_Arab–Israeli_conflict

Or, you can Google any combination of "Israel Arab Displaced" and other similar terms.

"By contrast, Jews living in the surrounding Arab countries were forcibly expelled. Any Jew living in an Arab country is a dhimmi, a second-class citizen; the same goes for Christians, Jains, or any other non-Muslim."

Absolutely true, as is happening now to Jews and Christians in Egypt, Iraq and Nigeria.

"And I don't think anybody "gave" the Israelis nuclear weapons."

Also true, the Israeli nuclear program was an entirely original effort, but received some limited technical aid by the French, none from the U.S.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_and_Israel

Sorry to be off-point, but it's good to be accurate when throwing darts.

Great post Kathy. Keep it up.
 
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