Free-float the barrel of a Weatherby Vanguard 2

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I'm surprised nobody mentioned simply buying a Boyd's laminated wood stock and bedding/floating your barreled action into that. Cost is about $100 and you now have two stocks for your gun. No mods done to the factory rifle and you can swap out as conditions dictate.
 
Okay, here's the test that should be done to prove whether your barrel should or should not be free-floated if in a SYNTHETIC stock. At whatever distance you're sighted-in, or 100 yards minimum:

1. Rest the forend on a soft surface, but with your hand between the surface and the forend, holding it firmly. Shoot a three-shot group this way.

2. Rest the forend against a tree or post, but from a sitting position, as might be encountered in the field. Fire a three-shot group that way.

3. Rest the forend on a hard surface, like a log, but try it in three different positions for each shot fired. Fire three to five shots that way.

If the points of impact of the shots at the different rests and forend positions are within your quarry's kill zone (or your desired results) you may wish to keep the forend pressure point.

If not, consider removing it completely and open the barrel channel to provide at least 1/16" clearance from the barrel at all points. Repeat the test that gave the worst deviation from point of aim to prove that free-floating is best for your hunting/shooting conditions.

(Note: Wood stocks normally change POI due to humidity changes, so I generally recommend free-floating them. Laminated birch stocks also can change to some degree, but not warp as much as spread under compression. Pillar bedding and free-floating are generally recommended, though there are some exceptions.)
 
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Picher, your excellent test applies to all stocks; wood, metal or synthetic. The same thing happens with all of them.
 
@Bart B.
Why do you think Winchester's claim that fluting increases rigidity is not valid? It's actually basic engineering. Take a piece of paper slide it slowly off a smooth desk surface until it droops—mark that point with a pencil. Now crease that same paper hard and flatten it back out to leave a "rib". Do the same... slide it off the desk and see how far out it gets. A square bottomed flute is way stiffer than a round bottomed flute and a properly fluted barrel is way stiffer than a round barrel regardless of profile/weight.
-SS-
 
Sweet Shooter, if you remove several long strips of metal from the outside of a rifle barrel, you've removed some of the material that resists bending. It's gonna be less stiff 'cause there's less metal resisting bending.

Winchester's fluted barrels have the same outside profile and dimensions of their standard ones. I talked to one of their engineers years ago when I first saw their claim about it. He agreed with me and was aghast that their web site would make such a claim; then he laughed when he actually saw it.

Check this link out; especially the part about folded flat stuff:

http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/RealBenefitsBarrelFluting.asp
 
@Bart B.
I don't buy it. Why then would gantry cranes not have round booms instead of triangles? Except for Remington's triangle shape barrels (which subtract surface area—excluding material) surface area is increased by fluting. I'm not saying it that in doing so includes more material, but if you measure stiffness as deviation x weight a fluted barrel will be stiffer. Someone needs to do a test. by hanging a weight and measuring deviation with a micrometer on barrels. But that's probably a different thread.
-SS-
 
Bart: I mentioned it for synthetic stocks primarily because wood stocks, and to some degree, laminated stocks can change POI through seasonal and age warpage/shrinkage, so should be free-floated without any question in my mind.

Synthetic stocks are not generally subject to the seasonal and age changes, so if someone really wants a pressure-point on those rifles due to use of various loads, it makes more sense, provided it's tested and works (for them) in various conditions.

JP
 
Sweet Shooter, your forgot the following in the link I posted:

Deflection at the Muzzle
If you are still not convinced that fluting DOES NOT increase stiffness, I offer the following theoretical explanation.

Let us take all three barrels and place them horizontally in such a way that we permanently affix one end to a fixed position and the other end will basically be free-floating. In other words, let us say that we are welding the threaded end of the barrel to the side of an M1A1 Main Battle Tank. Let us say that the weld is so strong that it is impossible to break the connection. Now, let us say that we will exert a vertical force of 500 pounds at the muzzle of the barrel. So basically, the threaded end is fixed to a tank while a 500-pound man is standing at the muzzle of the barrel. Do you want to know how much the muzzle end will deflect?

The 10FP (non-fluted) will deflect 4.4 inches. The 12BVSS (fluted) will deflect 7.5 inches and the Light Varmint will deflect 9.5 inches. Enough said.
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Such stuff is easy to calculate; mechanical engineers doing vibration analysis of stuff to survive earthquakes do that all the time. It's grade school physics to them.

Here's more info on fluted barrels:

http://www.varmintal.com/aflut.htm

Best thing for you to do is find a mechanical engineer then have him explain it. Decades ago, when I thought like you about it, I asked a mechanical engineer about it. He asked me about a wood sun deck's construction. "Which would be stiffer , 2x8's glued together vertically or alternating 2x6's and 2x8's glued together vertically?" The 2x6's are exactly like 2x8's that had an inch cut off their 8 inch dimension. Go figure.

Why would gantry cranes not have round booms instead of triangles? I don't know for sure but it's probably something to do with the single-plane (vertical) force/load axis they're used for coupled with cost, material weight and usability. Contact a company that makes 'em then ask why triangle instead of round shaped booms; remember their answer. Then you'll know more about them than I do.
 
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Tell me if I am wrong Bart but the way I have always understood it is that weight for weight a fluted barrel is stiffer than a non fluted. Meaning we would be comparing something like a fluted bull to a non fluted varmint.
 
Reynolds, you're right. For equal weight, the fluted one's stiffer. That's 'cause there's more metal further away from its center of mass resisting it being bent.

Regarding those Winchester barrels, both types have the same outside dimensions for a given caliber. Fluting one makes it lighter as well as less stiff than the solid one.
 
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A fluted barrel is somewhat heavier and stiffer than a barrel the diameter of the bottom of the flutes. It may or may not be as accurate as before fluting.

Often, fluting makes barrels less accurate, however if the barrel is button-rifled after fluting, accuracy is often better than barrels fluted after rifling.
 
Picher, you're right; rifling of any type is best done after the gun-drilled blank is fluted.

Folks who've air gauged barrels for very accurate groove diameters have seen the following for different rifling processes watching the bubble move up and down on the pressure gauge as the gauging head's moved back and forth in the bore:

* Button-rifled ones; grooves are swaged out from bore diameter (4 to 5 thousandths inch in one pass) creating outward stresses. Fluting button-rifled barrels makes the groove (and bore) diameters larger under the flutes and there's a bump at each end of the flutes.

* Hammer-forged ones; lands are swaged inward from multiple hammers pounding the barrel blank onto the spiral-fluted mandrel it's on creating inward stresses. Fluting hammer-forged barrels makes the groove (and bore) diameters smaller under the flutes and there's a bump at each end of the flutes.

* Cut-rifled ones; grooves cut (scraped) out from bore diameter (a few ten-thousandths inch for each of many passes of the cutter in each groove) creating virtual zero stresses. Fluting cut-rifled barrels typcally does not change the groove (and bore) diameters larger and there's no bump at each end of the flutes.

Same thing happens when you turn down a finished barrel of each type to make it lighter. I've known more than a few owners of best quality Hart button rifled match barrels turning off a tenth of an inch to make them lighter; they lost the gilt-edge great accuracy they had in their original diameter.
 
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vanguard barrel

I have been reading both sides of the discussion on floating a vanguard barrel. I have a 30-06 vanguard I bought from a previous owner who rarely fired the gun. I took it out to the range simply because I upgraded the scope and went to sight it in. I found the groups were 2 to 3 at best. One suggestion was if the barrel is free floated. We checked with a dollar bill and found the barrel touching on the left side in front on the forend and about 8 inches back on the right side.
I got home a took the action out and found the marks the barrel had made in those areas but not on the pressure pad. I sanded them down until the barrel had enough clearance for a dollar bill to pass through folded. (about .012 of an inch). I went back yesterday and shot it again and it shot one three shot group inside a one inch square. another about 1 1/2 and a third about the same. It seems like the gun liked to be free floated and performed that way. This was letting the barrel cool down at least 5 minutes between groups. I agree with Bart B. on this topic.
 
I'm a free-floater guy, but the thickness of a dollar bill isn't adequate to keep the barrel from touching, especially near the forend tip. Barrels normally vibrate more in the vertical, but some do it with a little left or right. Resting the rifle against hard surfaces, or using a sling, can cause the barrel to touch the channel on firing if there isn't adequate clearance.

Try pinching the barrel toward the stock at the forend tip, to see if either the stock or barrel move to touching with about 3 lbs of side force. If it touches, you may want to open the channel more. Barrels touching on the sides under vibration usually causes diagonal groups, strung away from the side that touches.
 
Hello,

The purpose of floating a barrel is to eliminate the possibility of unknown pressure points.

If a company can make a stock so perfect as to eliminate pressure points and have perfectly even contact down the barrel, then the stock should add rigidity to the barrel.

Additionally, fluting may or may not add rigidity. The "blood groove" in the spine of a knife adds rigidity without making the knife heavier, so I'm inclined to believe the engineering principle is sound.

If nothing else, it increases the surface area and lets the barrel cool faster.

As for barrel floating: Has nobody heard of the new benchrest rifles? A lot of them are using bedded barrels with floating actions.

Regards,

Josh
 
Josh, fluting a barrel makes it less stiff. Metal's been removed that made it as stiff as before fluting. It's like replacing every other 2x6 in a patio deck with a 2x4. Check out the following:

http://www.snipercountry.com/articles/realbenefitsbarrelfluting.asp

However, barrels of equal length and weight, one fluted and the other one plain, the fluted one's stiffer. It's got more metal further away from its center to resist bending.

Regarding those benchrest rifles with floating actions and the barrel gripped by something, that's been the standard for rail guns for decades. Sierra Bullets has used them since the '50's to test their bullets for accuracy because they want to eliminate all variables in the action and stock. They ride on a 3-point suspension rail. Some shoulder fired match rifles back in the early '70's have had their barrels clamped or epoxied in an 8" long aluminum block epoxy bedded in the stock's fore end. The action free floated in the stock with about 1/10th inch clearance all around it. Didn't shoot any more accurate than conventional epoxy bedding of just the receiver.
 
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The weak sister in the theory of bedded barrels and floating receivers is the stock. Benchrest stocks are 3" wide and extremely stiff. Barrels are non-tapered. That's why it works well, but as Bart said, not necessarily better than bedding a very stiff action and floating the barrel.

Comparing benchrest bedding to sporter rifles and tapered barrels is foolish. The stocks aren't that stiff and tightly bedded, tapered barrels can overheat and cause problems.

Barrels sometimes will shoot tighter groups with a well-fitted pressure point, but the POI may vary with various rests, especially field rests and sling pressure, not to mention temperature and humidity variations.
 
However, barrels of equal length and weight, one fluted and the other one plain, the fluted one's stiffer. It's got more metal further away from its center to resist bending.
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Right. to put it another way: the only way you can have a fluted barrel that is stiffer is if you start off with a much heavier barrel before fluting.
The cooling factor is the only good reason for fluting a barrel IMO, that is why most machine guns use fluted barrels. You can use a fluted barrel to lighten a hunting rifle but again you will likely give up accuracy due to the barrel being less rigid than the non fluted.
 
Picher, competitive shooters in all disciplines have been shooting tapered barrels for decades. None of them change point of impact as they heat up. Even with 30 to 40 shot strings when fired every 30 seconds or less, they all hold point of impact to the Nth degree.

It's not the barrel's profile that makes them bend and change point of impact. They're either poorly stress relieved or fit to receivers whose face ain't square with the chamber/bore axis and the high point there puts more pressure on the barrel at that point as the metal heats up. And sometimes the shooter changes his hold on the rifle or its position on the body a bit later in the shot string and that is guaranteed to change point of impact relative to point of aim.

It doesn't matter how stiff a barrel or stock is. As long as they're repeatable in the way they whip and wiggle for every shot fired, best accuracy is at hand.
 
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Right. to put it another way: the only way you can have a fluted barrel that is stiffer is if you start off with a much heavier barrel before fluting.
The cooling factor is the only good reason for fluting a barrel IMO, that is why most machine guns use fluted barrels. You can use a fluted barrel to lighten a hunting rifle but again you will likely give up accuracy due to the barrel being less rigid than the non fluted.
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I've never shot a machine gun with a fluted barrel. M249, M60, M240B, M2, or Mk19. Never saw a machine gun with a fluted barrel used by allies either, G43, DSHK, PKM, or RPK.

Barrel swaps are how machine guns deal with heat, except for aviation and coaxial machine guns which aren't in a position to swap barrels. Those guns just get hot.

Jimro
 
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