kilimanjaro
New member
Keep the best box for your WWII collection and trade or shoot the rest. As a collectible, the box condition is crucial. You paid a fair price for the ammo, nothing wrong there.
Frankford Arsenal ammo
- Thread starter BoogieMan
- Start date
Jim Watson
New member
I might still have a WWII steel cased round here somewhere.
I'll look.
I'll look.
"they made a dummy 308 round that was nickle plated with the a bite the bullet head stamp & year"
It is known as the "Tombstone" dummy. There are chromed and brass versions known, the brass being put together from left-over components. There are even some "fishy" loaded brass-cased ball rounds on the market.
It is known as the "Tombstone" dummy. There are chromed and brass versions known, the brass being put together from left-over components. There are even some "fishy" loaded brass-cased ball rounds on the market.
Bob Wright
New member
I measured a few rounds in my collection.
H/S Primer Dia.
REM UMC 17 copper .205"
REM UMC 18 copper .205"
PCC 18 copper .205"
FA 32 copper .205"
FA 35 copper .204"
EC 42 copper .202"
ECS 43 copper .201"
RA 41 nickel .210
The REM UMC and PCC of 1917 and 1918 vintage have the "stabs" for use in the M1917 revolvers. The EC and ECS cases are steel.
Not the best hand with calipers, I set the ID points in the primer pocket.
Bob Wright
H/S Primer Dia.
REM UMC 17 copper .205"
REM UMC 18 copper .205"
PCC 18 copper .205"
FA 32 copper .205"
FA 35 copper .204"
EC 42 copper .202"
ECS 43 copper .201"
RA 41 nickel .210
The REM UMC and PCC of 1917 and 1918 vintage have the "stabs" for use in the M1917 revolvers. The EC and ECS cases are steel.
Not the best hand with calipers, I set the ID points in the primer pocket.
Bob Wright
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It certainly sounds like they kept that small primer through WWII but contractors were allowed to use their own primer mixture, so maybe they were allowed to use their own (commercial) primers also.
I think I read somewhere that Evansville Ordnance Plant (Evansville Chrysler) made all the cases and Evansville Chrysler Sunbeam only loaded them. According to the story, cases were trucked across town in dump trucks and just shoveled into the ECS hoppers. So much for the advice to reloaders to take special care of their cases.
Jim
I think I read somewhere that Evansville Ordnance Plant (Evansville Chrysler) made all the cases and Evansville Chrysler Sunbeam only loaded them. According to the story, cases were trucked across town in dump trucks and just shoveled into the ECS hoppers. So much for the advice to reloaders to take special care of their cases.
Jim
Received the cartridges today. Packages are in fair condition with obvious signs of many years storage.
Lot F.A. 11 are red tipped ball with FA over 41 headstamp.
Lot F.A. 672 are brass ball with F.A. over 39 headstamp.
I cant get the tips of my calipers in very far so not sure if im catching the chamfer or not. The primer is measuring .204".
Lot F.A. 11 are red tipped ball with FA over 41 headstamp.
Lot F.A. 672 are brass ball with F.A. over 39 headstamp.
I cant get the tips of my calipers in very far so not sure if im catching the chamfer or not. The primer is measuring .204".
Mike Irwin
Staff
Production lot was just a sequential identified. Restarted every year.
The headstamp indicated the year of manufacture.
The headstamp indicated the year of manufacture.
Ah, suddenly the pics appeared today!
The ball ammo and boxes are not worth that much............you could ask $20 per and be lucky to get $10. The tracer box is pretty scarce, however. I only recall ever seeing a very few of them. Too bad the condition is so rough. I would definitely ask for $50 plus if I had it on my cartridge show table.
The ball ammo and boxes are not worth that much............you could ask $20 per and be lucky to get $10. The tracer box is pretty scarce, however. I only recall ever seeing a very few of them. Too bad the condition is so rough. I would definitely ask for $50 plus if I had it on my cartridge show table.
FA Lot numbers did not restart each year, and I don't think contractor lots did either. But what is confusing is that each type of ammunition was given a different lot number series. So Tracer, Ball/Match, Blank, Dummy, etc. would each have a different lot series and no way to compare the chronological order across ammunition types, except by headstamp date.
Jim
Jim
Aguila Blanca
Staff
Agreed. Don't shoot it -- once gone, you can never replace it.
FWIW, tracer was used in pistols for signalling, not for "tracing" as such. FA made it in red and green, with the bullet tips painted in the trace color. It was not as visible as flares and was not used as much, but the idea was the same.
In WWII, it was used in submachineguns as a tracer; I believe green was dropped by that time and red or orange used. Green tracer rounds are very rare.
Jim
In WWII, it was used in submachineguns as a tracer; I believe green was dropped by that time and red or orange used. Green tracer rounds are very rare.
Jim
Mike Irwin
Staff
"FA Lot numbers did not restart each year, and I don't think contractor lots did either."
You sure about that?
You sure about that?
Jim Watson
New member
CMP and NRA have published charts of the conversion from chlorate to styphnate (noncorrosive) primers by date and lot number. Be tough to do if they restarted lot numbers every year like Luger serial numbers.
Hi, Mike,
The lot number was not some kind of book keeping exercise, it was primarily for quality control purposes. If cartridges gave problems in the field, the lot number allowed Army Ordnance to determine exactly what kind of powder, primer, case, bullet, etc. had been used and track the problem to its source. For that reason, a change in the lot number was usually made because there was a change in a component, such as a change in the type/make of powder used. (Lot numbers are used by commercial ammunition companies today for the same purpose.) So a lot number did not cut off at an arbitrary date, like the first of the year.
One list I have shows (in part) FA production of .45 Ball/Match as follows:
Lots 290-304 (1926-1927)
Lots 305-369 (1927-1928)
Lots 370-399 (1928-1929)
Lots 400-410 (1929-1930)...
Lot 499 (1932)
Lots 500-605 (1933-1936)...
Lots 677-930 (1939-1941)
As to quantities, National Match/Ball Lots 201-245 (1919) ran 2,000,000 rounds; Lots 373 and 374 (1929) ran 1,250,000 rounds; Lots 431 and 432 (1931) ran 1,016,000 rounds. Single lots ran from 250,000 to over 600,000 rounds. (At that time, NM and regular ball were combined in FA production; there was no special NM headstamp.)
Jim
The lot number was not some kind of book keeping exercise, it was primarily for quality control purposes. If cartridges gave problems in the field, the lot number allowed Army Ordnance to determine exactly what kind of powder, primer, case, bullet, etc. had been used and track the problem to its source. For that reason, a change in the lot number was usually made because there was a change in a component, such as a change in the type/make of powder used. (Lot numbers are used by commercial ammunition companies today for the same purpose.) So a lot number did not cut off at an arbitrary date, like the first of the year.
One list I have shows (in part) FA production of .45 Ball/Match as follows:
Lots 290-304 (1926-1927)
Lots 305-369 (1927-1928)
Lots 370-399 (1928-1929)
Lots 400-410 (1929-1930)...
Lot 499 (1932)
Lots 500-605 (1933-1936)...
Lots 677-930 (1939-1941)
As to quantities, National Match/Ball Lots 201-245 (1919) ran 2,000,000 rounds; Lots 373 and 374 (1929) ran 1,250,000 rounds; Lots 431 and 432 (1931) ran 1,016,000 rounds. Single lots ran from 250,000 to over 600,000 rounds. (At that time, NM and regular ball were combined in FA production; there was no special NM headstamp.)
Jim
Mike Irwin
Staff
"The lot number was not some kind of book keeping exercise, it was primarily for quality control purposes. If cartridges gave problems in the field, the lot number allowed Army Ordnance to determine exactly what kind of powder, primer, case, bullet, etc. had been used and track the problem to its source. "
Yes, I know that.
In fact, it was exactly a bookkeeping exercise, designed to track the particulars that you mentioned.
But yes, the more I thought about it this afternoon, the more I realized that it wouldn't be logical to restart every year.
At the time this ammunition was made, though, the answers to all questions on source was the same, as it hadn't changed since just after World War I, and wouldn't change until World War II.
Yes, I know that.
In fact, it was exactly a bookkeeping exercise, designed to track the particulars that you mentioned.
But yes, the more I thought about it this afternoon, the more I realized that it wouldn't be logical to restart every year.
At the time this ammunition was made, though, the answers to all questions on source was the same, as it hadn't changed since just after World War I, and wouldn't change until World War II.
FA made bullets, cases, and primers, but they did use different powders, mainly Bullseye No 2, DuPont Pistol Powder No. 5 and DuPont Pistol Powder No. 6, and powder changes were reflected in lot numbers. But even when FA itself was the source of a component, changes were made from time to time (e.g., the use of a bullet cannelure), and the Lot number could trace any problems arising from those changes.
Jim
Jim
Thanks for all the info on these old cartridges. Sounds like I got lucky with the purchase and made a pretty good deal.
How are you guys finding all this historic information such as lot number information, lot sizes, changes in components, etc...? I found very little with Google.
The same question for any firearm manufacturer. I always see the same names pop up whenever I ask historical questions. Are the lot of you that well read or have you asked that many questions over the years?
How are you guys finding all this historic information such as lot number information, lot sizes, changes in components, etc...? I found very little with Google.
The same question for any firearm manufacturer. I always see the same names pop up whenever I ask historical questions. Are the lot of you that well read or have you asked that many questions over the years?
My source for a lot of that info was Volume I of the excellent History of Modern U.S. Military Small Arms Ammunition by F.W. Hackely, W.H. Woodin and E.L. Scranton, Revised Edition. The authors had access to FA records and other Department of Defense/Department of the Army records.
I do usually cite sources, but that title is a long one and I didn't do so in this case, for which I plead sheer laziness.
FWIW the books are long out of print and I understand are bringing fancy prices on the auction sites.
Jim
I do usually cite sources, but that title is a long one and I didn't do so in this case, for which I plead sheer laziness.
FWIW the books are long out of print and I understand are bringing fancy prices on the auction sites.
Jim