Rampant_Colt
New member
More is being lost than gained when handgun bullets fragment.
100% weight retention is preferred
100% weight retention is preferred
Fragmentation VS Retained Weight
- Thread starter madmag
- Start date
MikeNice81
New member
Mad, using your older non bonded hollow points will be fine. Those bullets worked for years before the "bonded craze" began. There is no need to doubt they will continue to work.
A conversation I had with an audio engineer seems to fit in here. We were talking about the new microphone preamps that a manufacturer was releasing.
I was super excitedc that this company was releasing a "new and improved" version of their classic design. He looked at me and said, "remember these companys have to find ways to make money. Every couple of years they come out with something and call it improved. It doesn't matter if it really is a whole lot better. People will run out and buy it because the manufacturers are telling them it is."
Then he asked me if I prefered using his vintage preamp by that company or their newer preamp that I owned. I told him I thought the older one was better. He smiled.
"The one you have was advertised as the improved version of mine," he told me.
Now I'm not saying that bonded are inferior. I am saying, because something is "new and improved" doesn't mean you have to throw away what has always worked for you.
I know guys that still use nonbonded Ranger ammo and go handgun hunting with Hornady XTP bullets. I know that some police departments were still issuing Winchester Super X Silver Tips as late as 2001. Some still use Federal Hydra-Shok which is not a bonded bullet.
I guees, simply put, I'm saying a new invention doesn't make the old invention less effective.
A conversation I had with an audio engineer seems to fit in here. We were talking about the new microphone preamps that a manufacturer was releasing.
I was super excitedc that this company was releasing a "new and improved" version of their classic design. He looked at me and said, "remember these companys have to find ways to make money. Every couple of years they come out with something and call it improved. It doesn't matter if it really is a whole lot better. People will run out and buy it because the manufacturers are telling them it is."
Then he asked me if I prefered using his vintage preamp by that company or their newer preamp that I owned. I told him I thought the older one was better. He smiled.
"The one you have was advertised as the improved version of mine," he told me.
Now I'm not saying that bonded are inferior. I am saying, because something is "new and improved" doesn't mean you have to throw away what has always worked for you.
I know guys that still use nonbonded Ranger ammo and go handgun hunting with Hornady XTP bullets. I know that some police departments were still issuing Winchester Super X Silver Tips as late as 2001. Some still use Federal Hydra-Shok which is not a bonded bullet.
I guees, simply put, I'm saying a new invention doesn't make the old invention less effective.
As long as your bullet penetrates the vitals sufficiently to cause quick terminal damage, either one will work fine. On thin-skinned game, I don't mind a fragmenting bullet at all, and they usually cause a very quick death.
It's when deeper penetration is needed that you need the bullet to hold together.
For example, if you have a bullet that fragments enough so that it won't exit a deer, then that bullet may not be a good choice for bear or elk. Something heavier, that's designed to stay together will give better penetration.
Penetrating bullets, when used on smaller, thin skinned game may not expand much. That's not a problem with a large caliber bullet, but can be with smaller calibers.
Match the bullet to the game your hunting, and you'll be fine.
Daryl
It's when deeper penetration is needed that you need the bullet to hold together.
For example, if you have a bullet that fragments enough so that it won't exit a deer, then that bullet may not be a good choice for bear or elk. Something heavier, that's designed to stay together will give better penetration.
Penetrating bullets, when used on smaller, thin skinned game may not expand much. That's not a problem with a large caliber bullet, but can be with smaller calibers.
Match the bullet to the game your hunting, and you'll be fine.
Daryl
Water or gel is a terrible simulation for flesh. It is more a testing medium to compare bullets, not to show what it does in the body. Fragmentation, expansion, etc. is great, but the only thing that matters is hitting the part that needs to be hit. Fragmentation may or may not be bad, depending on the result, so I would hesitate to call it a failure. Personally, I would rather it stay together to minimize deflection and low penetration. There's no such thing as too much, but there is too little.
There's no magic to a bullet wound, folks; it's just a hole in your skin. A lot of the theory out there does not translate to the real world. I think this "gel testing" has everybody crazy for temp. cavity, energy, etc. and it just doesn't do much of anything in the body. If it did, we would see it when we treat gunshot victims. (HANDGUN bullets, that is)
Yes, your body is ~70% water, but that is deceiving, as it is not free water. Most of it is within cells, etc. For instance, some is contained in your muscles and bones, which will not react anywhere near the same as free water when hit by a bullet.
I like Daryl's post above mine. It is what I would say.
There's no magic to a bullet wound, folks; it's just a hole in your skin. A lot of the theory out there does not translate to the real world. I think this "gel testing" has everybody crazy for temp. cavity, energy, etc. and it just doesn't do much of anything in the body. If it did, we would see it when we treat gunshot victims. (HANDGUN bullets, that is)
Yes, your body is ~70% water, but that is deceiving, as it is not free water. Most of it is within cells, etc. For instance, some is contained in your muscles and bones, which will not react anywhere near the same as free water when hit by a bullet.
I like Daryl's post above mine. It is what I would say.
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cougar gt-e
New member
The question of older vs new bounces around in my head a lot. The old stuff used to be top shelf, but is now not as good --> but it is what ... a couple percent less effective? It's not like a person shot with a new tech bonded bullet will explode in a pink cloud where a person hit with the old stuff COM will shrug it off and grab a beer with his buddies at the bowling alley.
Yeah, the new stuff IS better. Just not so much better that the old stuff is tossed (unless your made of $$). Just my $0.02
Yeah, the new stuff IS better. Just not so much better that the old stuff is tossed (unless your made of $$). Just my $0.02
Bare in mind that "hype" is a part of marketing. Those "old" bullets, when they were the "latest and greatest", sold for top dollar. Now that there's "new and improved", the older bullets are available at a usually cheaper price.
Not that the bonded bullets aren't "better" in some ways, but they're not necessarily the best of all worlds.
I'm old school in many ways. I'm a handloader, and I found loads that work for me for a variety of animals, in a varienty of firearms and calibers.
I'm also just old enough to have seen "the latest and greatest" change...several times.
Back in the 80's, I used Sierra Bullets...a lot. They didn't work all that well for me, simply because they'd fragment pretty badly. I finally switched to Speer SPBT's in the late 1980's, and I still use them today.
I've shot through elk, bison, and bears with these bullets without any trouble at all. A deer, in comparison, is very easy to shoot through, and I get good expansion even on deer.
So what's my point? I see a majority of hunters who will only use the "best" bullets for hunting, and they seem to base "best" on price and marketing, rather than what's needed to accomplish the task at hand.
They shoot Partitions, A-frames, Barnes, and other bullets with fancy names, designed to give deep penetration and good performance. They pay a premium for a half-box of them, too. I say "half-box" because they usually pay more (sometimes double) for a 50 cnt box than I do for a 100 cnt box of my "old, outdated" bullets that still kill like the hammer of Thor.
But as long as folks look for a crutch, there will always be "new and improved".
That doesn't mean that one must pay the price for it to succeed, whatever their shooting needs might be. There's nothing wrong with those "old" bullets, whether for target shooting, hunting, or self-defense.
And if one fails to do the job, do what you'd do with those new bullets...shoot again.
Daryl
demigod is correct:
..... in that you want a handgun bullet to penetrate first and foremost - any expansion is a plus. Modern bullets have been perfected so you get good penetration and expansion. Shot placement between the armpits and the base of the throat is paramount.
With self defense at very close distances, you don't have the luxury of time on your side. Hence, you need the bullet to penetrate deep enough through the vitals and hopefully knock out the central nervous system. Multiple shots might also be necessary to quickly lower blood pressure sufficiently for unconsciousness.
A suspect can still kill you several times over with one shot in his lungs or in the stomach / gut; this is why the threat to take you life must be immediately stopped as soon as possible.
..... in that you want a handgun bullet to penetrate first and foremost - any expansion is a plus. Modern bullets have been perfected so you get good penetration and expansion. Shot placement between the armpits and the base of the throat is paramount.
With self defense at very close distances, you don't have the luxury of time on your side. Hence, you need the bullet to penetrate deep enough through the vitals and hopefully knock out the central nervous system. Multiple shots might also be necessary to quickly lower blood pressure sufficiently for unconsciousness.
A suspect can still kill you several times over with one shot in his lungs or in the stomach / gut; this is why the threat to take you life must be immediately stopped as soon as possible.