Form 4473 Revised To Include “Non-Binary” Gender Option

[dogtown tom]

44 AMP the more time goes on, the more I wonder just WHY they have to put us in those "leetle teeny boxes" anyway?

Again........The point of the descriptive information given by a buyer on the Form 4473 is used by the FBI or State POC during the background check process and in criminal investigations. The KISS principle applies.

It's right there in the instructions that no one has bothered to read.
Instructions to 10a & 10b on pg 4 of the current 4473.

What is the public benefit from the govt asking me if I'm A or B or AC/DC ethnically or physically when I'm buying a firearm??

See above answer.

What if I don't know? Or, more specifically, what if I don't know HOW the govt defines a term?

You read the instructions or ask someone who knows.....like atf.gov

 

[dogtown tom]

labnoti

I just noticed the 4473 PDF on atf.gov indicates the Social Security Number field is "Optimal, but will help prevent misidentification." Yes, "optimal" not "optional."

That's weird. I have around 6,000 completed 4473's and 2,000 4473's still in the box that have the word "Optional", not "Optimal".

Looks like ATF made a revision without going through the legal process.

 

[dogtown tom]

zukiphile I suppose the 4473 could have an essay portion so the FFL could really get to know the transferee as an individual.

I've joked for years when explaining the 4473 to a first time buyer "No essay question yet".

 

[labnoti]

I'm not sure a typographical error counts as a revision, but it is a pretty serious flaw and one where I would not be surprised if it had been caused by autocorrect and obviously missed by spellcheck.

I do wonder why they don't have a better method to maintain the integrity of published documents and forms. I've worked in IT for businesses in regulated industries like pharmaceuticals, healthcare, and nuclear energy and the ability to store documents so as to assure their integrity against changes whether from intentional revision, accidental change, or corruption is critical. I guess the ATF is more haphazard and careless about that kind of thing.

 

[dogtown tom]

The forms on the ATF website cannot be used to store a buyers info, they are for printing out if the dealer runs out of hard copies.

There is also e4473 that is form filling software, and used by many FFL's. It does not transmit information to ATF.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Again, OH GOOD GRIEF!
READ the instructions.
Being an enrolled member of a tribe IS NOT REQUIRED. Now you are inventing stuff that is not on the current 4473 or the proposed 4473.
"(1) American Indian or Alaska Native- A person having origins in any of the original peoples of North or South America (including Central America) and who maintains a tribal affiliation or community attachment..."
See anything there about being an enrolled member of a tribe? NO, YOU DON'T.

Yes, I do. What do you think "maintains a tribal affiliation" means?

It means you chose to stop reading. What do you think the rest of that sentence means?
And "tribal affiliation" doesn't necessarily mean one has to be an enrolled member either

The rest of the sentence includes several other racial categories that aren't the subject of this discussion. The rest of the clause pertaining to Native Americans reads:

(1) American Indian or Alaska Native - A person having origins in any of the original peoples of North and South America (including Central America), and who maintains a tribal affiliation or community attachment

So the part you claim I'm missing is "or [maintains] a community attachment." And they don't explain or define what that means, any more than they explain or define what "maintains a tribal affiliation" means. You say "tribal affiliation" doesn't mean being an enrolled member of a tribe. Okay -- what's the basis of your assertion? I spent about two hours yesterday, scouring the Internet for anything that defines what "tribal affiliation" means in the context of these federal forms and data collection. I came up with zilch ... so I wrote to my congresscritter to ask what it means. With any luck, I may get an e-mail in a month or two that says something incomprehensible, but I won't hold my breath.

I've been wrong before, and I'll undoubtedly be wrong again. But if you're going to beat me over the head with "YOU'RE WRONG," the least you could do is show me something that says I'm wrong, and explains why.

As for "community attachment," I have some idea what that means. For example, I once worked with a woman who was a Flathead Indian. We were in a state far away from where the Flathead reservation is located, but she subscribed to the tribal newspaper to stay up on matters that affected the tribe. That might be construed as "maintaining a community attachment." But I used Elizabeth Warren as an example, partially because she is well-known, and also because of the nature of her claims that she's a Native American. She is not an enrolled member of the Cherokee Nation -- the tribe has said that, and she has acknowledged that. Beyond that, she has spent her entire life living and working as a white academic, mostly in colleges and universities far distant from the Cherokee reservation. She has never maintained any sort of attachment to any Cherokee community.

So ... is she entitled to self-identify as a Native American on a 4473 or any other form that asks the same question and has the same instructions?

 

[Aguila Blanca]

I just noticed the 4473 PDF on atf.gov indicates the Social Security Number field is "Optimal, but will help prevent misidentification." Yes, "optimal" not "optional."

That's weird. I have around 6,000 completed 4473's and 2,000 4473's still in the box that have the word "Optional", not "Optimal".

Looks like ATF made a revision without going through the legal process.

I'm going to guess that some drone in the Government Printing Office made a typo when they set up to run a new batch of 4473s. I have a link to the 4473 on the BATFE web site and it does, indeed, say "Optimal." But I also have a PDF copy of the current (2016) 4473 that I downloaded and saved in November of 2017, and that copy says "Optional."

The form number in the upper right hand corner is the same on both: 1140-0020.

The form identifier in the lower right hand corner is also the same on both:

ATF E-Form 4473 (5300.9)
Revised October 2016​

For what it's worth, the on-line version of the Spanish edition of the 4473 (dating from February 2017) still says "Opcional."

https://www.atf.gov/file/121156/download

 

[USNRet93]

Since you asked -- Yes, I do think a simple "mixed race" is a better identifier.

Good grief..I have .006% Neanderthal blood and some 'Moorish', according to "23 and me"...I guess I'm mixed race.

Moor, in English usage, a Moroccan or, formerly, a member of the Muslim population of what is now Spain and Portugal. Of mixed Arab, Spanish, and Amazigh (Berber) origins, the Moors created the Arab Andalusian civilization and subsequently settled as refugees in North Africa between the 11th and 17th centuries.

DogTown Tom gets it..if it weren't Elizabeth Warren or President Obama as part of this, these posts wouldn't even exist..MANY other examples to be had....
'Not political', righto-

 

[dogtown tom]

Aguila Blanca ...So the part you claim I'm missing is "or [maintains] a community attachment." And they don't explain or define what that means, any more than they explain or define what "maintains a tribal affiliation" means. You say "tribal affiliation" doesn't mean being an enrolled member of a tribe. Okay -- what's the basis of your assertion?

Wait a minute....YOU are the one that claimed one had to be an enrolled member of a tribe in order to claim Native American, that is simply not correct.

I spent about two hours yesterday, scouring the Internet for anything that defines what "tribal affiliation" means in the context of these federal forms and data collection. I came up with zilch ... so I wrote to my congresscritter to ask what it means. With any luck, I may get an e-mail in a month or two that says something incomprehensible, but I won't hold my breath.

When there is no definition in federal law, common sense applies. But you held that enroolment was required yet that does not appear in any federal law. It may surprise you but not every "tribe" has formal enrollment. Federal law allows each tribe to decide how it determines its members. Some require 100% ancestry....no offspring from mixed marriages.

I've been wrong before, and I'll undoubtedly be wrong again. But if you're going to beat me over the head with "YOU'RE WRONG," the least you could do is show me something that says I'm wrong, and explains why.

I've pointed out what the passage in the 4473 says....and it sure as heck doesn't say one must be an enrolled member of a tribe to claim Native American.

Ethnicity and Race options are self reporting. The buyer is the one to choose which options best describe his race and ethnicity. If he chooses "Hispanic" & white and he's neither.....he commits a felony when he signs the 4473.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Wait a minute....YOU are the one that claimed one had to be an enrolled member of a tribe in order to claim Native American, that is simply not correct.

No. The instructions say you have to either "maintain a tribal affiliation" OR "[maintain] a [tribal] community association." I said I think "tribal association" means being enrolled in a tribe. You said I am wrong, but you haven't cited anything to demonstrate that I'm wrong, or what lesser "affiliation" constitutes "tribal affiliation."

The instruction also says "or community association." So maintaining a [tribal] community] association is an acceptable substitute for "tribal affiliation" (whatever that means) ... but there is also no definition or explanation of what constitutes "community association."

Those words are right there in the instructions, and they apply ONLY to Native Americans ("American Indians") and Alaskan Natives, not to any other several other racial categories. So the government must have had some reason for putting those words there, but they haven't told us what those words mean. I have stated what I think "tribal affiliation" means. I have also stated that I have no idea what "community association" means. I did NOT say that one must satisfy both criteria; "or" means "or," not "and."

I've pointed out what the passage in the 4473 says....and it sure as heck doesn't say one must be an enrolled member of a tribe to claim Native American.

You say I'm wrong as to what "tribal affiliation" means. What does it mean, and what government source says that your definition is correct and that mine is incorrect?

We agree on what the form's instructions say. Agreed, the form does not say "enrolled member." The form does say "maintain tribal affiliation," and it does not define what "tribal affiliation" means. Since you are so certain that it doesn't mean enrollment in a tribe -- what does it mean, and what's the authority for your definition?

 

[dogtown tom]

Aguila Blanca ....Elizabeth Warren as an example, partially because she is well-known, and also because of the nature of her claims that she's a Native American. She is not an enrolled member of the Cherokee Nation -- the tribe has said that, and she has acknowledged that. Beyond that, she has spent her entire life living and working as a white academic, mostly in colleges and universities far distant from the Cherokee reservation. She has never maintained any sort of attachment to any Cherokee community.

Again, being an enrolled member is not a requirement to choose "Native American" on the Form 4473. Choosing Native American means that the buyer/transferee has some Native American ancestry and has tribal affiliation or community attachment.
For example: Navajo requires 25% "blood quantum" to be considered a member of the tribe.....the Navajo tribe. Less than 25% doesn't make you ineligible for claiming Native American ancestry
The Cherokee Nation doesn't require "blood quantum, but instead "individuals must provide documents connecting them to an enrolled lineal ancestor who is listed on the Dawes Roll with a blood degree. CDIB/Tribal Citizenship is traced through natural parents. In cases of adoption, CDIB/Citizenship must be proven through a biological parent to an ancestor registered on the Dawes Roll.”

So ... is she entitled to self-identify as a Native American on a 4473 or any other form

She is if its true and genuinely has Native American ancestry...and not necessarily Cherokee: " ...a person having origins in any of the original peoples of North of South America (including Central America) and who maintains a tribal affiliation or community attachment..." If one of her great grandparents was Native American.....she does have "origins". But again, there is no requirement for her to prove she has the documentation necessary to be an enrolled member of the Cherokee tribe.

 

[dogtown tom]

Aguila Blanca
Quote:

Originally Posted by dogtown tom
Wait a minute....YOU are the one that claimed one had to be an enrolled member of a tribe in order to claim Native American, that is simply not correct.

No. The instructions say you have to either "maintain a tribal affiliation" OR "[maintain] a [tribal] community association." I said I think "tribal association" means being enrolled in a tribe. You said I am wrong, but you haven't cited anything to demonstrate that I'm wrong, or what lesser "affiliation" constitutes "tribal affiliation."

I don't need to define "tribal association" to you....that would be the Feds. But you do need to prove that there is a requirement to be an enrolled member of a tribe in order to select Native American.

The instruction also says "or community association." So maintaining a [tribal] community] association is an acceptable substitute for "tribal affiliation" (whatever that means) ... but there is also no definition or explanation of what constitutes "community association."

No kidding.
Child is adopted by a Navajo family, biological great grandparent was a full blooded Navajo, no one else in that childs bloodline is Navajo. Meaning the kid is not eligible for membership in the Navajo tribe. They live on a reservation. To anyone with a lick of common sense that there....is tribal affiliation or community association, but NOT a member of the tribe. Meaning the child could select Native American on the Form 4473.

Those words are right there in the instructions, and they apply ONLY to Native Americans ("American Indians") and Alaskan Natives, not to any other several other racial categories. So the government must have had some reason for putting those words there, but they haven't told us what those words mean. I have stated what I think "tribal affiliation" means. I have also stated that I have no idea what "community association" means. I did NOT say that one must satisfy both criteria; "or" means "or," not "and."

Yeah, I know.
I learned all that the first time I read the 4473.
Regarding the meaning of "tribal affiliation or community association", the government doesn't have to provide a definition of every word or term in a document, instead they rely on the ordinary meaning rule: "a principle of statutory interpretation that when a word is not defined in a statute or other legal instrument, the court normally construes it in accordance with its ordinary or natural meaning. This rule guides courts faced with litigation that turns on the meaning of a term not defined by the statute, or on that of a word found within a definition itself."

Quote:

Originally Posted by dogtown tom
I've pointed out what the passage in the 4473 says....and it sure as heck doesn't say one must be an enrolled member of a tribe to claim Native American.

You say I'm wrong as to what "tribal affiliation" means. What does it mean, and what government source says that your definition is correct and that mine is incorrect?

See above. And again, I didn't say your interpretation of "tribal affiliation" was incorrect....just that "enrolled member of a tribe" was not required.

We agree on what the form's instructions say. Agreed, the form does not say "enrolled member." The form does say "maintain tribal affiliation," and it does not define what "tribal affiliation" means. Since you are so certain that it doesn't mean enrollment in a tribe -- what does it mean, and what's the authority for your definition?

See above.

 

[44 AMP]

Gentlemen, I think this is becoming a bit irrelevant. IF Elizabeth Warren, or any one else checks a racial/ethnic box they aren't "qualified" for, what's going to happen??

IF your DNA test comes back saying you are 0.1% sasquatch can you check the sasquatch box?? Is the govt doing DNA checks to ensure you're ONLY checking the appropriate boxes on the 4473? I don't think so...

If you check the "wrong" box because you IDENTIFY with that group, and your DNA proves you don't have any kind of significant connection with that group, are you going to be charged with lying on the 4473???

 

[RETG]

Good point. The choices under "Race" are
American Indian or Alaskan Native
Asian
Black or African American
Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander
White

My question has always been....
If actually born in South Africa and white...which choice is correct.

 

[dogtown tom]

44 AMP Gentlemen, I think this is becoming a bit irrelevant. IF Elizabeth Warren, or any one else checks a racial/ethnic box they aren't "qualified" for, what's going to happen??

IF your DNA test comes back saying you are 0.1% sasquatch can you check the sasquatch box?? Is the govt doing DNA checks to ensure you're ONLY checking the appropriate boxes on the 4473? I don't think so...

If you check the "wrong" box because you IDENTIFY with that group, and your DNA proves you don't have any kind of significant connection with that group, are you going to be charged with lying on the 4473???

Ask Bruce Abramski.
He lied on a 4473 that he was the actual buyer, was convicted and appealed to the USSC and lost.
Now, he likely would never have been caught if he wasn't being investigated for other crimes, where a search warrant turned up a check from his uncle that was payment for a Glock that Abramski bought using his police discount. No one would have ever seen his 4473 if they hadn't followed up on that check. When Abramski signed that 4473 its was under penalty of law.....a law that he violated by identifying himself as the actual buyer/transferee.

If I were to check off "Hispanic" & "Asian' of which I know am neither, and sign the 4473 I have committed a Federal crime. Although ATF/FBI/Texas Rangers/Mayberry PD may never see that 4473, that doesn't make it any less of a crime. It isn't something to be flippant about and I highly recommend educating oneself with the instructions.

Note that a Form 4473 is a one page of the buyers info, one page on the verification/recording of his ID info and a half page on the firearm info......and three and a half pages of instructions and definitions that no one bothers to read. Yet they'll fill out that first page in under a minute making numerous errors that a dealer will do his best to catch. I've asked more than one lily white red head "are you sure you're Native American?" If he's positive then the consequences are on him.

 

[dogtown tom]

RETG Good point. The choices under "Race" are
American Indian or Alaskan Native
Asian
Black or African American
Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander
White

My question has always been....
If actually born in South Africa and white...which choice is correct.

You answered your own question.
WHERE you were born is immaterial.
Remember, the instructions are there for a reason.

 

[zukiphile]

To anyone with a lick of common sense that there....is tribal affiliation or community association, but NOT a member of the tribe. Meaning the child could select Native American on the Form 4473.

Emphasis added. That begs the question. Assuming "common sense" would prevail on any point in a federally regulated matter is a bet one can lose.

An "affiliation" describes a sort of official status, as do "agent" or "subsidiary". Affiliation with some tribes is a matter of economic importance and can be resolved by enrollment. If it isn't clear that something different is intended, "affiliation" could just be a synonym for enrollment, exhibiting the kind of redundancy observed in other contexts, e.g. "true and accurate".

"Community attachment" does seem to mean something more broad than enrollment. I'll guess that liking untaxed cigarettes is less community attachment than most would accept for checking that box.

Regarding the meaning of "tribal affiliation or community association", the government doesn't have to provide a definition of every word or term in a document, instead they rely on the ordinary meaning rule: "a principle of statutory interpretation that when a word is not defined in a statute or other legal instrument, the court normally construes it in accordance with its ordinary or natural meaning. This rule guides courts faced with litigation that turns on the meaning of a term not defined by the statute, or on that of a word found within a definition itself."

That is a normal court rule and might have saved the federal government this heaving mess of a category if they hadn't provided the definitions at all, or even better if they'd not provided the section at all.

3) Black or African American - A person having origins in any of the Black racial groups of Africa....5) White - A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa.

Most people in the US who identify as "Black" have some "origins in any of the original peoples of Europe..." So what good comes of checking such a box?

Assuming that good sense untangles the 4473 knot is a leap.

 

[dogtown tom]

zukiphile ....An "affiliation" describes a sort of official status, as do "agent" or "subsidiary".

Not according to Websters:
Definition of affiliation: the state or relation of being closely associated or affiliated with a particular person, group, party, company, etc.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/affiliation

Affiliation with some tribes is a matter of economic importance and can be resolved by enrollment. If it isn't clear that something different is intended, "affiliation" could just be a synonym for enrollment, exhibiting the kind of redundancy observed in other contexts, e.g. "true and accurate".

"Enrollment" is a term used by the Bureau of Indian Affairs. If the two were synonymous I'm sure it would have been used instead. But it wasn't.

"Community attachment" does seem to mean something more broad than enrollment. I'll guess that liking untaxed cigarettes is less community attachment than most would accept for checking that box.

 

[dogtown tom]

zukiphile ....Most people in the US who identify as "Black" have some "origins in any of the original peoples of Europe..." So what good comes of checking such a box?

Really? Got a source for those original peoples of Europe with Black skin?
In several thousand transfers to customers who chose Black or African American I can only recall one who chose more than just Black, he also chose Hawaiian and one other I believe.

 

[44 AMP]

OK, taking another look at the 4473 in the link, it appears Hispanic/non Hispanic must be answered, and can only be one or the other.

But the instructions for the race block say "select one or more". To me that says that if you know you are mixed race, then you simply check more than one box. Doesn't seem that complex. If you're more than one thing, you check more than one box.

As far as the Abramski case, evidence indicated there was a deliberate attempt to deceive, and thereby violate the law.

I'd like to think that simple mistake due to lack of information would be treaked differently by the courts. Still a technical violation of law but without intent, should make a difference.

In my case, I can trace my mother's family in a direct line back to 1555 and a collateral branch back to 1056. "White" Europeans, all. On my father's side, the line stops "dead" with his parents. There is no information beyond their names and dates. All family records were destroyed in a fire somewhere around 1900 or so.

SO, my father's side could POSSIBLY contain more than traces of other racial groups. I don't know, and I don't have (and am not getting a DNA test just to find out). SO, I might be qualified to check other boxes, but I don't. I only check the one I'm sure of. Am I committing a federal crime by NOT checking boxes I don't know for sure I should?

To me that's a much different matter than claiming "first people" status to get admission to a college or something like that and decades later having the DNA say "you are only 0.01%-1.6%" of the claimed status.

Not going to lose any sleep over it, either way.