For The Open Carry Crowd

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DPris

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I'd been wondering what happened to the others initially reported arrested during the Dallas shootings, only the bomb recipient sniper was mentioned after those early reports.

Finally saw one news feed yesterday.

If true, apparently 20-30 protestors showed up for the event with rifles openly carried, Tejas being an open-carry state.
And wearing camo. And helmets. And gas masks. And "bullet-proof" vests.

Think about that.

LE running INTO the kill zone after firing commenced & unable to determine the source direction encountering armed people running toward them all dolled up for combat.

Among all that pandemonium, with fellow officers going down from gunfire, and the panicked crowd screaming, milling & running around in all directions.

In my mind, as a retired cop who's worked a hostile crowd a time or two, officers on scene deserve the highest amount of credit possible for the fact that two men & one woman were ARRESTED, and not SHOT, in those circumstances.

It could so easily have gone the other way, had any of those rifle-totin' vest-wearin' protestors have innocently & accidentally waved a muzzle in the wrong direction in front of LE during the excitement.

I do not imply in any way that those protestors had any intentions whatever of USING the rifles they carried to & during the protest.
But, responding cops had no way of knowing that.

The primary point is that when you carry openly, particularly your pet AR, you create certain potential risks for yourself.
When you do so in inappropriate times & places, more so.

And those who carry openly "just 'cause I can & it's my right" do more harm than good to responsible gun owners.
There's already talk among Tejas government of new legislation to restrict certain aspects of open carry.

The un-thinking few, as with the Starbucks AR-15 Club a couple years back, screw it up for the rest of us.

The Dallas incident, in this one small corner of the event as a whole, clearly illustrates one very real fall-out potential for open-carriers.

You don't do gun owners at large anything positive by scaring the public at large, and you risk finding yourself on the wrong side of LE response if something totally unexpected goes to spit around you, because of two things: YOUR visible presence, and your GUN'S visible presence.

In the current environment, thinking that "If more of us do it more often, it'll get the public more used to it & we'll get more support" is a major mis-reading of life today.
It ain't gonna happen that way.

THINK before you haul your AR (or shotgun, or whatever) along to ANY event or place. Pro-gun demonstration, Sunday picnic in the park, stroll through the mall, whatever.

And there is no racial or political component in any part of my message, so let's not even try either route.
Denis
 
I agree. I have made a similar argument before (although my argument was less complete), and I drew some resistance. From now on, I hope people will be much more careful about open carry, and will limit their public displays. I think many people in the political center tend to turn against gun owners when they see blatant displays of open carry in public places.
 
Open Carry = Shoot Me FIRST!
(And ironically one of the reasons Texas was able to pass OC for handguns last year was that people were worried about being arrested for printing (accidentally exposing their pistol).

But everyone has the right to do very stupid things in public. And we've seen some of that recently.
 
DPris said:
Think about that.

LE running INTO the kill zone after firing commenced & unable to determine the source direction encountering armed people running toward them all dolled up for combat.

Among all that pandemonium, with fellow officers going down from gunfire, and the panicked crowd screaming, milling & running around in all directions.

In my mind, as a retired cop who's worked a hostile crowd a time or two, officers on scene deserve the highest amount of credit possible for the fact that two men & one woman were ARRESTED, and not SHOT, in those circumstances.
Agreed -- 110 percent.
 
When these active shooter events happen, many people armchair quarterback what would happen if a good guy with a gun happened to engage the bad guy.

My answer is this; you are probably going to get shot. If not by the bad guy, you will definitely get hit by the next good guy with a gun that shows up.
 
DPris said:
In my mind, as a retired cop who's worked a hostile crowd a time or two, officers on scene deserve the highest amount of credit possible for the fact that two men & one woman were ARRESTED, and not SHOT, in those circumstances.
Yes, absolutely, and I think the Dallas police chief, David Brown, deserves a lot of credit for their professionalism. He took over as chief in 2009; since then he has increased deadly-force training and implemented training in de-escalation techniques, and he has also fired a large number of officers for misconduct. These changes have led to a huge drop in complaints of excessive force and in officer-involved shootings. As noted in this article:
In 2009, the year before he took over the department, there were 147 such complaints filed; as of November 2015, there had been just 13 for the year. Brown told the Morning News in 2015 that he credited the new training methods with a 40 percent year-on-year drop in police shootings and a 30 percent drop in assaults on officers. BuzzFeed’s Albert Samaha points out that, in the years since 2012 (when Dallas police shot 23 people), the frequency of officer-involved shootings has consistently fallen; according to the department’s data, there were 11 last year, and before Thursday, there had been just one in 2016.

All of this makes it sickeningly ironic that this vicious attack was carried out against his police force.
 
To add to Ricky's post
Quote:
My answer is this; you are probably going to get shot. If not by the bad guy, you will definitely get hit by the next good guy with a gun that shows up.
---or the police.

And yet none of those things happened. :rolleyes: This incident is a COUNTER-example to your argument.
 
And yet none of those things happened. This incident is a COUNTER-example to your argument.
It's largely a matter of luck that none of the "open carry" advocates were shot.
It's stupid to carry a rifle to a protest.

Just because it's "a right" doesn't mean it is right.
 
"Just because you can, doesn't mean you should."
I get so frackin' tired of the types of people that say things like that. I've noticed that they never say it to those in power, "Just because you can run radar at the bottom of a long hill doesn't mean you should". Instead, it's always complaining about some right or freedom someone is exercising that they don't agree with or feel comfortable about.
 
"When these active shooter events happen, many people armchair quarterback what would happen if a good guy with a gun happened to engage the bad guy.

My answer is this; you are probably going to get shot. If not by the bad guy, you will definitely get hit by the next good guy with a gun that shows up."

I don't know. It normally takes the police a long time before they do anything effective, like shooting someone.
 
While I support peoples right to open carry, I personally do not choose to for most of the same reasons mentioned by the OP. I do not see any real advantage to it at all and quite a few potential disadvantages.
 
"Just because you can, doesn't mean you should."
I get so frackin' tired of the types of people that say things like that. I've noticed that they never say it to those in power, "Just because you can run radar at the bottom of a long hill doesn't mean you should". Instead, it's always complaining about some right or freedom someone is exercising that they don't agree with or feel comfortable about.
Yeah, I know what you mean.

I get just as irritated when people try to justify foolish acts by saying "It's my right".

I just can't see any logical reason to carry a rifle to a "protest" in a city.

If anybody has one, I'd be glad to hear it.
 
Why does an honor guard carry rifles? Don't they realize if a terrorist attacks the parade or funeral they are at, the police will have to waste time and resources securing their guns? They should just carry a ceremonial kazoo or something. For officer safety.

I'm being sarcastic to make a point, but IMHO it's the same damn thing. It's not our place to belittle Mark Hughes for lawfully exercising his rights. He did the best he could with the cards he was dealt.
 
Fatuous statement, not the same thing at all, and I belittled no individual.
I do belittle a mis-used concept & practice.
Denis
 
We have allowed the argument of "only a good guy with a gun can stop a bad guy with a gun" to be adjusted to "a good guy with a gun WILL stop a bad guy with a gun" and even further to be adjusted to a matter of public safety.

Nowhere in getting my concealed license did I take on a duty of active protection of the public. I know this is open carry but those choosing to open carry also made no such commitment.

When we allow those making arguments "for us" to make arguments that we do not intend we set up our own straw men. I should never have to answer as to why open carry advocates did not respond to a threat to the public. I should never have to explain why, when ambushed by someone with an unknown position, unknown targets, and in a crowd having an in-cohesive response from multiple defenders would have not been tactically sound. I should never have to point out that the trained officers on duty were not able to respond in a manner that protected all those involved (even though they did protect a lot of people).

This is why we must examine the arguments we make in favor of gun rights closely and make arguments that are based on the natural right of an individual to defend him or herself without the government, the legal fact that the police are not responsible for the defense of an individual, and the legal protections of self autonomy in our nation.*

*There is a political lesson in here about choosing our allies better and clinging to groups that preach self autonomy - the lessons from those groups can teach us a lot and some behaviors that have been grouped as against traditional conservative values are very much in line with the values of self-determination. IMO gun rights are about self determination - not a conservative or liberal agenda.
 
In regard to openly carrying a firearm during a protest, even Mr Hughes questioned the wisdom of his actions once shots were fired. I guess he didn't think it through before hand.
 
Finally saw one news feed yesterday.

If true, apparently 20-30 protestors showed up for the event with rifles openly carried, Tejas being an open-carry state.
And wearing camo. And helmets. And gas masks. And "bullet-proof" vests.

That would be the Dallas Police Chief who said this. Notice that none of them were arrested, detained, on the news like the one guy listed as a suspect, or that there apparently aren't any pictures of them anywhere?

If there were 20 or 30 there, then why did they make such a big deal about the one guy and give him a hard time with hours of questioning and confiscate his gun and clothing? Something doesn't jive.

I am thinking there were not 20 or 30 open carriers there in camo, helmets, gas masks, and bulletproof vests.
 
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