FN Magwells Overly Flexible

[DaleA]

Thanks for the link Skans.

 

[sevt_chevelle]

My FNX doesn't do that.

 

[buckhorn_cortez]

I tried this on my wife's FNX-9mm - I can't get it to squish using thumbs / fingers on both hands and squeezing and hard as I can.

The magwell deflects about the same amount as my HK P-30 and VP9.

 

[g.willikers]

They are purposely made that way with those rubbery grips so if you drop the gun, it will bounce right back up so you can quickly grab it and continue.
Really.

 

[Bart Noir]

g.willikers, thanks for the laugh!

Bart Noir

 

[samsmix]

Wow! That escalated quickly!

So there is an FNX at my LGS, and I've been eying it. i don't take YouTubes word over my own judgement, but it DOES sound like there is room for concern. You can bet a I'll be checking the mag well, and YES at this price I will expect a pretty dang high standard to be met. One little bobble at this price and I will thumb my nose...but if it seems okay I'll still bite.

Frankly I expect that if a $200 used Ruger P-series or Gen1 Sigma can have a ridged mag well then a friggin' $1000 piece ought to have one as well, regardless of who made it.

FWIW, I'm not really a brand name fanboy, but I'm closer to being one with FN than most others...but a thousand bucks is a thousand bucks!

 

[tipoc]

There was a thread in another forum in response to this video, and pretty much everyone who had an FN ran to the safe to see if theirs did the same, and sure enough it did. Apparently this has been a problem going back to as early as 2010.

Really? A problem for 5 years?

A batch of fellas bought this FN gun. Took the guns home, cleaned and examined them. Put the mags in and out, dry fired, etc. All the things we all do with a new gun. Took them to the range, fired them, fired them some more. Took them home and cleaned them, etc.

But in all that they did not notice that the mags did not drop free because the mag well was too flexible and they did not notice that the grip frame was more flexible than Gumby's rear end?

They did not notice this till they saw the video and then ran to their safes to discover that all their guns were useless and they'd be better armed with a rubber chicken.

Please post a link to that thread. I gotta see these knuckleheads to know who to avoid. How is this an issue for 5 years and no one notices?

tipoc

 

[Walt Sherrill]

I have two of the newer FN semi-autos. An FNS-40 and an FNS-40L, gotten in recent trades. The grip frame of mine are almost rock hard, wiith no noticeable flex.

Note: I typically don't shoot .40s all that well. I traded a tuned Glock 35 and a highly tuned S&W M&P Pro 40 (and received some cash) for the FNS-40s. Both parties shot the guns before doing the trade. I couldn't shoot the Glock and S&W worth a damn, but found the FNS-40s to be very nice and very accurate. The guy I traded with shot very small groups with my Glock and S&W... go figure. I couldn't shoot them, but he sure could. I think we both felt we got the best of the deal.​

It may be that the gun in the first photo came from the factory with defective polymer. (CZ had some problems with their early P-07s and the polymer versions of their RAMI; those problems were quickly identified and the guns replaced.)

What you see on YouTube can be helpful, and can also help you look for potential problem areas. It can also be complete B.S.

Accepting what you see there as Gospel, and assuming that a given gun's problem as described is legitimate (and not some sort of cock & bull story from a disgruntled owner) or arguing, as the original poster did that it is something you are sure to see in other copies of that same model, or by extension, in other guns made by that gunmaker, seems naive, at best.

I would note, too, that I'm a member of the FN Forum, and I've not seen any mention of that problem, there. You can't flex the grips of my new FN-FNS40 or FN-FNS40L like that.

 

[10mm4ever]

Maybe you should go checkout FN forums. While there, don't be surprised to see issues with the trigger bar being frozen because the polymer frames on FNPs and FNX pistols tends to expand in certain areas on hot days or after being left in a hot car. And the original FNP 45 should have been recalled. A design flaw existed that would allow the trigger pin to drift out during cycling to the extent that the trigger would get stuck in such a way that even attempting to manually reset it would be impossible. And then there were the mags for the FNP 45 that were so poorly designed! Maybe reading from issues experienced by actual owners will convince you. I wouldn't trust my hide to any of the FNP/FNX line.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Maybe you should go checkout FN forums...

I did, but apparently not extensively enough (or maybe, not BACK far enough) to see mentions of the problems you describe.

I'll check them out on the FNP and FNX area. I'm not familiar with the FNP and not interested in the .45 version of the FNX -- and that may account for me not seeing complaints.

It would appear that the newer FNS line has resolved the polymer issue. There's no WAY that grip will flex like the one in the photo.

Since you've seen more than I have, how is FN responding to the complains -- are they offering solutions?

 

[vyse.04]

I don't get the hate directed towards the topic creator, as he clearly stated "this" particular FN handgun. I didn't read anything from him demanding a total recall, nor was evidence presented that he owned one that melted I'm his hands. I think it was more of a "have you guys seen this" post than anything else. And besides, this issue isn't the typical thing you read that is passed on as heresay (as opposed to fourth hand Taurus bashing).

I do not like the idea of a polymer gun that can change shape (on an extreme level) due to heat, although I do not leave my guns sitting in hot cars/outside for extended periods of time. I've been a fan of the FN line dating back to the FNP-9, so I am not a hater of them as a brand.

I used to frequent the FN Forum, and read about issues with their .45s as well. I didn't look too much into them as I felt the design was too large for me, but legitimate concerns were raised.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

I don't get the hate directed towards the topic creator, as he clearly stated "this" particular FN handgun. I didn't read anything from him demanding a total recall, nor was evidence presented that he owned one that melted I'm his hands. I think it was more of a "have you guys seen this" post than anything else. And besides, this issue isn't the typical thing you read that is passed on as heresay (as opposed to fourth hand Taurus bashing).

You apparently missed the following part of the original post. He wasn't an owner, and he was citing second and third hand information, too. His personal experience seems to be with ONE gun that wasn't his.

I have owned polymer guns from most of the big names, and not a single one will do this. Not that I really had any interest in FN's, but this pretty much solidified that I will never buy one.

Chevrolet made the VEGA but people still buy Camaros and Corvettes. Ford made the Pinto, but the Mustang is going strong.... Some models suck, others have problems that sometimes are resolved. Some die a proper death.

The original poster says he has no interest in FNs and and he will never buy one -- that attitude apparently based on second hand information about two specific models, and personal exposure to one gun.

He didn't make the general comments above SPECIFIC to the FN or FX models. I would note that FN makes a lot of hand guns, some under the Browning rollmark, and supplies a lot of the weapons used by the US military, as well as a range of rifles and shotguns. FN has always made the Hi-Power, whether wearing a Browning or FN rollmark.

Had the OP just posted what he had found or seen, I would have been both comfortable and informed. I would then want to know what FN has done about the problem. I still want to know THAT. NOBODY has said a thing about that, here or elsewhere that I can find -- but people are still buying FPs and FXs in a range of calibers. Has the problem noted been addressed?

As I noted earlier, gun makers do screw up and HOW they resolve the screw-ups are the big point of interest. As I noted earlier, I've got two FNS models, neither of which have grips that can be flexed -- they can barely be compressed at all, with the mag removed.

.

 

[tipoc]

I tried using the advanced search function over here...


http://fnforum.net/forums/fn-handguns-forum/


in an effort to find more information on this but it turned up nothing on this issue. Could be I entered the wrong search terms.

Maybe others with more time can link us to any significant threads on this matter at that forum.

tipoc

 

[Walt Sherrill]

I looked as well. Did find some complaints about the FN .45s, Not magwell problems, though. All apparently addressed/resolved by FN.

 

[Dragline45]

Yup, apparently I touched a nerve with the FN Fanboys on here, pretty obvious who those are based on how they feel they need to defend FN like it's their young. While this maybe isn't a problem across the board with FN's, it's not a new problem and isn't just limited to the one case of this video. I cant find the forum I was on a few days ago, but a google search will bring up people complaining about this going back a few years. Also as 10mm4ever mentioned, there are also numerous cases of the trigger bars sticking, cheap plastic FCG's, as well as other numerous cases of people having problems with mags dropping free.

If you like FN's, great, but this problem along with numerous other problems I have read about have turned me off to them. You can argue that I shouldn't let second hand information sway my opinion about them, but it has, so get over it.

Since you are so hell bent on me posting more proof that this isn't a lone problem, here are a few cases with a quick google search going back before this video was even posted some going back as far as 2009. These are just a few examples in maybe 5 minutes of google searches, I could keep going.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/archive/index.php/t-868062.html

What flaws are you talking about?
1) The polymer frame is softer than ANY other polymer frame guns I've owned, and that contributes to a few of the problems below.

2) The fire control group is in a plastic housing.

3) The frame/fire control flexes when pulling the trigger in DA. Cycle the trigger slowly back and forth without dropping the hammer and watch the rear frame around the hammer swell and flex.

4) I has able to get the SA to fail 4 times during dry fire drills. The trigger would bottom out, but the hammer would just sit there and not drop ... until about 3 seconds later. Common if you read the FN forums with all FNX's, sometimes refered to as the "heat issue".... but mine was room temperature. I think that due to the lack of rigidity in the fire control area.

5) The backstraps have a lanyard loop on them, and if you drop a loaded FNX 45 while hooked to a lanyard, the backstrap retention tab on the frame will bend or break allowing the gun to hit the ground or water. This POS tab is part of the frame, if it breaks.... then what?? Again, take a look at that crappy thin strip of plastic that locks on the backstraps, combined with that SOFT polymer..... why engineered that?? My back strap tab would not even catch on the lip on the backstraps, I had to bend it with my fingers repeatedly first before the backstrap I wanted to use would catch.

6) The mags stop 1.5" from seating if they are tilted slightly forward while inserting them. This is because FN ships all FNX 45's with a 1.5mm lip/edge of the mag catch that sticks up higher than the inside surface of the inner polymer of the frame. The FIRST time I tried inserting a mag, it would catch on the top front edge of the mag body itself. I again went into the FN forums and read that you have to remove the mag catch and grind it down on the edge. I did, and my mags seated perfectly after that. Total BS, something I should have never had to do.

7) Due to the toy-like soft plastic frame.. slightly pinch (thumb one side, index finger on the other) the middle of the frame at the top close to the slide about 1" behind the trigger, cock the hammer and while lightly pinching the frame, pull the trigger... I induced failure on mine every time while doing this... hammer won't drop because the plastic frame is interfering with maybe the trigger bar or something.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_5_4/140108_HK45_Tactical_vs_FN_FNX_45_.html

Frame plastic is soft. Have had tac lights dig up frame under normal clamping, gnaw up the picatinny rail, and twist right off the rail.

Impossible to detail strip gun without destroying some parts of the fire control group.

http://www.uzitalk.com/forums/showthread.php?69569-Big-.45s-HK-Mk23-or-FN-FNX-45-Tactical

Basically:
- Inside they're cheap plastic and poorly cast MIM (Metal Injection Molding)
- The fire control group gone horribly wrong. Phillips Plastics wasn't able to produce a MIM cast metal sear to proper ISO tolerances
- Use of sub-standard polymer in the fire control system, leading to critical failures
- Frame cracking

http://www.m4carbine.net/archive/index.php/t-30078.html

The FNP-45 feels REALLY flimsy compared to the 9. It felt like I could crush the grip if there was no magazine in it.

https://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=5&f=4&t=106284

I even tried a FNP 9mm single action only and it was ok. I thought the weird bent sheet metal safety kinda sucked and the plastic was very flimsy.

http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk-handgun-talk/135928-heard-funniest-thing-today-2.html

The plastic on the frame felt more flimsy than Glock frames, and after shooting a few mags rapid-fire, the dust cover bent upwards and the slide was leaving imprints on the top of the dust cover everytime it cycled

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Dragline45 in post #35...

The first lengthy excerpt posted was a combo of two different posts: The first guy (first sentence) liked his .45. The list of faults is from a another poster. In that list

1. the second poster complains about the soft polymer, but he doesn't tell what problems that created for him.
   
   
2. He talked about plastic fire control unit, but didn't tell us why that was a problem. (Nor has anyone else...)
   
   
   I suspect it's like plastic guide rods for some shooters: just bad because it's plastic, not because it's dysfunctional. I remember years ago, when SIG started using plastic guide rods in their guns. The End of the World as We KNow It was upon us. They quickly stopped -- not because they didn't work, but becaue SIG owners raised hell. They apparently started back up again -- I just checked my SIG P228, one of the last models (before the M11A1), and it has a plastic guide rod.)​
3. He complained about a lanyard loop that MIGHT damage the loop or let the gun drop -- as though anyone we know will be using a lanyard loop. DID it damage anything or allow the gun to hit the ground? That could be easily tested with a pillow or padded blanket.
   
   
4. He complained about something in the mag well that keeps mags from being fully inserted quickly if it's not held just right. (Other FN owners found a work around/modification that solved the problem.) We don't know whether it was there for a reason, like non-drop-free mags were with a number of guns for a number of years...
   
   
5. He complained about a frame so soft that when pinched near the middle while pulling the trigger, it wouldn't let the hammer fall. That's an easy fix: don't squeeze the frame in that area when pulling the trigger. It makes for an awkward way to hold the gun, anyway.
   
   
   I think you can have problems with an alloy or steel-framed Beretta if you squeeze in that area while pulling the trigger... As the Beretta (and a similar Taurus) has a trigger bar on the outside of the frame. ​
6. One very valid complaint, about the trigger not releasing the hammer in SA mode -- was addressed in the linked discussion -- has been FIXED by FN (including a new gun in a couple of cases).

Most of the excerpts cited are complaints about design issues that may or may not be true problems. (You can detail strip without destroying the frame -- but you often need to use a tool to spread the polymer a bit.) I don't understand how, for example, horribly soft polymer can lead to a cracked frame -- but that was mentioned in one of the excerpts. Have there been catastrophic failures in the fire control system? It would appear there have been -- else why mention it? It hasn't raised its ugly head on the FN Forum as far as I can tell.

You can see/read many DESIGN FEATURE complaints in discussions about Glocks or SIGs or CZs or RUGERS, particularly with newer models -- lack of safety levers, mag safeties, crappy sights, frame problems, etc., etc.

I'd certainly complain about some of these things if they caused functional problems. And if commenting on them, I question whether they MIGHT be a problem in the future -- but I wouldn't list them as true problem or fault unless I was sure they were problems or faults.

Are any of the things (except the SA trigger) cited real problems? And when someone complains to FN, are they fixed? What is the outcome?

 

[Dragline45]

You can critique that post all you want, I am not going to sit here and argue on behalf of that poster, if you really want to, go sign up at that forum and send him a message. There was doubt that this was a problem beyond this one example in the video I posted, and I was challenged to show other examples. I showed that there are indeed several more examples going back years with FN's frames being soft or flimsy, I'm sure I could have found more if I kept looking.

I don't understand how, for example, horribly soft polymer can lead to a cracked frame -- but that was mentioned.

Apparently you have never seen rubber crack then, just because something is soft doesn't mean it cant crack.

 

[Guv]

I think for the price this would very be unacceptable. My cheap Sigma doesn't do this.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Apparently you have never seen rubber crack then, just because something is soft doesn't mean it cant crack.

I think you'll find that rubber used in tires if fundamentally different in it's nature than the plastic materials used in gun frames -- although both are called polymers.

It's sort of like the difference between two metals: aluminum and steel. Aluminum doesn't flex well and will typically break very easily if bent; it's not used to make springs. Steel is much more resilient and can be made to be very flexible. It can bend and return to its original starting point.

Tires are supposed to flex and be soft -- if they were harder, they'd run longer, but they wouldn't stop the car very well. They also must be soft enough to abrade against a hard surface -- for traction. When tires crack, its typically from environmental issues, like sunlight or air (oxidation) -- and those cracks come from chemical changes to the material, not from physical forces applied to the material.

Polymer gun frames while more flexible than steel, are meant ti mimic steel somewhat -- and to do what a steel frame does -- be the base upon which a a slide and barrel runs. When frames crack in gun, it tends to be the kind of stress that damages metal: a very STRUCTURAL TYPE OF STRESS OR CRACK that comes from forces with or applied to the material.

It seems to me that almost by its very nature, a polymer soft enough to flex easily -- like we see in the photos earlier in this discussion -- is far more likely to bend or stretch than break. I don't understand how one type of polymer is likely to do both -- and that PART of one of the responses is what prompted my response on that point. Maybe someone familiar with the materials used in gun frames can explain?

(Make most plastics cold enough, they can be cracked...)

 

[TunnelRat]

If pointing out that writing off an entire brand for what we can at best determine to be a limited number of failures (we can always find a failure depending on what we consider a failure) and we've seen both here and on that same video that there are more people at both locations without the problem than with the problem then I guess that makes me a fanboy. I have no great love of FN, but I do call out hypocrisy.