FN FAL, HK G3, or M1A?

DougB

New member
I apologize up front for not really doing my "homework" on this. I have read up a little, but not as much as I generally would before posting a question like this. I live in California. Time is very short for me to decided if I should get an FAL, a G3, or just wait and get an M1A after the ban (I think all I would lose is the flash suppressor, which I would trade for not having to register it as an "assault weapon").

I'm looking at an STG-58 FAL built from an STG-58 parts kit on an Imbel receiver by Century arms. I can order one for around $650 with one 20-round mag.

I could also get an HK G3 for about $100 more. Sounds like the same deal - Century installs an HK parts kit (used, I imagine) on a U.S. made alloy reciever. Also comes with one 20-round mag.

I have virtually no experience with either of these (I've handled SOME version of an FAL and a G3 in the past - and was not too impressed with the workmanship-but I don't know what brand or types I saw).

I do like the M1A's pretty well, so that's always a future option. But getting an FAL or G3 is probably now or never. Any recommendations? "Both" is not an option. Buying a much more expensive version is not an option. If the M1A is much better, I may just skip the FAL or G3 alltogether. What are the pros and cons of the FAL vs. G3? I have read a little on the dedicated FAL websites, but they are a little too deep into the subject to help me much. Thanks.
 
Based on availability of magazines and support, as well as on the designs, I would rate M14 as #2 choice for your circumstances, FAL as #2 and G3 as #3...IMO.
 
G3: US made receivers, particularly the Hesse, are pure crap. I would only buy a Hesse if they cost $200 complete because I'd probably need another $600 worth of smithing work to get it functional. Foreign made (FMP) receivers are outstanding, made on liscenced HK tooling, and nearly impossible to get before the end of the year. Magazines go for $30-$40 for aluminium or $40-$60 for steel. This pretty much puts a HK type out of the picture unless you want to pay the $1800-$2200 for the real deal. Check out http://www.unsuave.com/~hkpro/home.htm or www.hk91.com for more info.

M1A: These are very nice and can still be had for $1200-$1500. Magazines are a bit expensive. As it will be new, there will probably be no problem, and if there are, there are many knowledgeable folks around to help you. Lots of parts and accessories make the M-14 types appealing.

FAL: I have one of these built on a DSA receiver and have had no problems as yet. If I had to do it again, I'd have searched harder for an Imbel. Those Century STG's may not be built with as much care as they probably should (do a search and check Dave AA's troubles). If I were you, I'd locate either a Imbel (first) or DSA receiver, buy a STG-58 parts kit, US parts kit from DSA (again avoid Hesse anything), and have a smith barrel and headspace it for you. There are quite a few in the LA area that can do this, including Triple-H Acurizing who did mine. This will probably set you back about $800-$1000 for everything, but at least you'll have a local smith to complain to if things aren't right. One advantage of a metric FAL is the price and availablility of magazines, parts, and accessories. Factory mags can be regularly purchased for $10. With approximately 90 countries using this design there is a vast variety of web gear available from the simple canvas Belgian rig to the beautifully modern Canadian kit. Check out the FAL Files at: http://www.fnfal.com/falfiles/index.html

I hope this clears things up a bit. Looks like out of your picks, only the FAL and M1A remain viable. It may end up being a matter of preference or of pain (of getting a FAL assembled).

[This message has been edited by Destructo6 (edited November 06, 1999).]
 
Of the three, I prefer the HK91.

However, given that you're in California and you can't get an original, a CETME (early Spanish import version) or Springfield Inc. SAR8 (Greek copy of the HK), I'd go with a FN FAL clone.

The M14 is a good design (developed with help from John Garand) and I enjoy shooting my civilian version. However, I don't trust the quality of Springfield Inc. receivers (which must be inspected - see previous threads).

The only choice left of the three is the FN-FAL. Like the M14, it is very comfortable to shoot. It enjoys the advantage of an adjustable gas port to compensate for the different types of ammunition you may come across. Another advantage of the FN is magazines are about half the price of the M14/M1A. There's a FN-FAL website you should check out for more information on this rifle.

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Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt
 
Beware of the Century StG-58 rifles.

From what I've seen and heard/read about, these kit guns are often made from mixed metric and inch pattern rifles.

Though they will "work", they work poorly.

A quick trip through the FAL Files will verify this (see above post for the web address) and a quick search on this forum will show same.

Since you live in California, and if you're looking for a FAL, your best bet for a good rifle is one that causes the least amount of headaches in the long run.

So, first thing to do is to get yourself an Imbel receiver from The Dealer Warehouse in Sacramento (order today...wait no longer!). Then get a StG-58 kit from Federal or TAPCO, maybe two (for parts, though unlikley you'll ever wear any part out)). Then order some magazines from Inland Ordinance. Then ask your FFL (who will be mailed your receiver) if he can recommend a gunsmith to put it together/refinish for you.

It will cost you more money this way, no doubt about it, but you only have one shot at this, so do it right, and don't be cheap. I've found being cheap just doesn't "pay"...sorry about that bad humor, I just couldn't help myself.

Duncan

[This message has been edited by Duncan (edited November 08, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Duncan (edited November 15, 1999).]
 
I don't know about these "kit guns", but I can tell you, when I was in the military, I carried both an M-14, a FN-FAL, and a G-3 at different times and for different operations - but of the three:
- I HATED the G-3 - I couldn't shoot it well - the stock was way too sort, it felt wrong, I didn't like the way it broke down (excessively complicated) and the rear sight used to whap me on my glasses.
-The M-14 was fine, and adequate for my purposes.
- The FN-FAL was GREAT and is, in my estimation, THE perfect assault rifle. I LOVED it - as well as the FN MAG machine gun we used with it. We had FN manufactured ones with wood butstocks, synthetic pistolgrips and forends. It LOOKED too long - but in actual use, balanced and shot so well I fell in love with it. And it is so easy to maintain!

But, then I liked the M3 greasegun better than the Uzi or the HK - or the Colt - and I was the ONLY one who did.

IMHO - which may be worth little to you.
 
The FAL mags are dirt cheap. Consideration? I have an M14 and it shoots great. Very accurate and reliable as anything else as far as I'm concerned. I was actually considering buying another one but I purchased a Springfield SAR8 (HK91 clone) instead. VERY happy with that one. Has an MSG90 buttstock, PSG-1 Grip and Trigger group, bipod, ARMS claw scope mount and mediocre scope. Shooting it is downright heaven. Almost no recoil. Can't believe it shoots the same caliber as my M14!
Was going to get an FAL but didn't want anything except a DS Arms (quality issue) and I couldn't find one. Now I don't want one....then again, might as well round out the set!
If I had to do it all over again, I would get the SAR8/91 first (don't bother with the Century G3 crap!) and then the M14 second. FAL would still be my third choice since I have never shot one.
My $.02!
 
If you can afford it you could buy Hk SR9, t,tc, or 41 (A LEGAL 91) just a nit pick, but the true G3 is a select fire, and 91 a semi.
I own a M1A NM with super on way, but havent shot much, but what I have, I have been very pleased, my buddy who forgot how to type on this forum (HKG3A2) has a (you can probably guess)Hk91 and I shot a couple mags through it and liked it a lot. The ergonomics kind of suck, and no hold open on last shot, hard on brass, very dirty chambers, but very reliable. If I were going for scoped long range I would definitly do M14 type as there are many smiths who can work them to be as accurate as you want, and can afford..

Don't know much about FAL except that Combat arms annual about two years said they basiclly last forever, the G3 most reliable, the M14 best sights and long range accuracy. In comparison the M14 won as best overall with the AR 10 next/ SR 25 was excellent but mags a real problem.. The AR type was most user friendly with reguard to placement of controls. If you can find a good reliable M14 type it should work anywhere you will go. See discovery channnel with NAVY SEALS using M14'S and liking them a lot, I imagine they are more concerned about function than most/ if not all the members of this forum. They were shown deployed with the M14's in the desert (gulf wars) and in the Mountains during snow season all long shooting or heavy obstacles (big tree trunks)

Hope this will help you a little in deciding, I've been there done that, bought the T-shirt.

[This message has been edited by oberkommando (edited November 09, 1999).]
 
I've been there.

Couldn't decided, so I started working on a STG58 KIT. But, in the 8 months it took to get the receiver, I went out and purchased a Chi-Com Poly M-14s. It was sweet enough that I then bought a SA M1A NM.
No regrets...

Eric
btw: I still haven't put together the STG58 Kit. I'll do it some day....
 
Its not on your list but what about an Armalite AR10, they cost about the same as a M1A. I've never heard any complaints about them, unless there was a thread here that I missed.
 
If you check Armalite's web page, specifically the tech page, they're recalling the "lot C" bolts for AR10s and they have some other problems. Mags and other parts/accessories are not commonly available.

[This message has been edited by Destructo6 (edited November 10, 1999).]
 
All are great rifles but I think the M1A in either "NATIONAL MATCH" or for COMPETITION the "SUPER MATCH" configuration are the best semi auto full size rifles on the civilian market! They are very accurate, reliable, robust etc; I would want one with FLASH SUPPRESSOR! And NEW G.I. 20 ROUNDERs are still available in SHOTGUN NEWS!!!

The M14 is still in service in some circles of the military. It is a superior shooter, and "better" caliber weapon than M16. And it is a "KILLER" at both ends! M16 does handle better and is easier to carry... Ammo is also lighter... In a fire fight though I would take an M14 over any other "INFANTRYMAN" rifle in the world!

Go for M1A with "FLASH SUPPRESSOR" and get as many G.I. pre-bans as $$$ possible and you will have the best semi-auto "BATTLE-RIFLE" in the WORLD! IMHO...

If bought a COLT carbine also, you would have the complete American Militaria Collection!!!

BEST OF LUCK...

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SURE SHOT
 
All are great rifles but I think the M1A in either "NATIONAL MATCH" or for COMPETITION the "SUPER MATCH" configuration are the best semi auto full size rifles on the civilian market! They are very accurate, reliable, robust etc; I would want one with FLASH SUPPRESSOR! And NEW G.I. 20 ROUNDERs are still available in SHOTGUN NEWS!!!

The M14 is still in service in some circles of the military. It is a superior shooter, and "better" caliber weapon than M16. And it is a "KILLER" at both ends! M16 does handle better and is easier to carry... Ammo is also lighter... In a fire fight though I would take an M14 over any other "INFANTRYMAN" rifle in the world!

Go for M1A with "FLASH SUPPRESSOR" and get as many G.I. pre-bans as $$$ possible and you will have the best semi-auto "BATTLE-RIFLE" in the WORLD! IMHO...

If you bought a COLT carbine also, you would have the complete American Militaria Collection!!!

BEST OF LUCK...

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SURE SHOT
 
Condolences on living in the People's Republic of CA. I have not shot the G3 rifles, but the FAL a little (nice rifles!) and the M14/M1A a fair amount. After lusting after my own M1A for quite some time I finally got one and had it bedded, etc. I find that I prefer the M1 Garand to the commercial M1A. The M1 seems to be better made, easier to manage without the big box magazine hanging down, is well supported by parts dealers, is reasonably priced through the CMP, and has great WWII nostalgia. For the price difference I can do any minor work the M1 needs and buy a lot of components to get out and shoot in it.

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Having read this thread I will post my own observations. I have owned bolth the HK and the M1A and shot the FN quite a bit so I can offer some comment on all. Starting with the HK, the trigger sucks, it feels like someone dumped a load of gravel in there. The ergonomics are horrid, can't reach the charging handle, the mag release or the selector. The sights are not great but they are servicable and it will accept the best quick release scope mount I have ever used. I believe that a battle rifle should have a bolt hold open device, if the hammer falls without a discharge immediate action is the rule, without the bolt hold open device an empty rifle and a malfunctioning rifle act the same. On the plus side the HK is a very modular system changing the trigger, forend, stock, etc. is very simple and I can say mine never failed to function. The M1A, my personal choice, has the best trigger out of the box and while the others can be improved none can match what a good smith can do to the garand style trigger. Parts availibility is as good as it gets and the action is solid. If you are worried about the price of mags join a DCM affiliated club and (unless it has changed in the last few years) you can purchase up to five a year at a very reasonable rate. That is five used and five new per year by the way, if that has changed please let me know it has been a while for me but I hate the idea of putting out incorrect info. The M1A can be tuned to greater accuracy for the invested capitol and can be had in several configurations. stock options are probably more varied for the M1A as well, GI wood, E2 configuration, folders (2 types), fiberglass, McMillen makes at least three etc.. Scope mounts are readily available, some good and some not so good, I haven't tried the new scout scope base from Springfield but I like the concept. The FN is known as the right arm of the free world and I am sure that there is good reason for it. The samples I have fired were good solid shooters and it has the best folding stock available, I can't say the same about the scope mounts I have seen however. It does seem long and unwieldy but I agree with another who posted here when I say that it doesn't feel that way when you handle it. I do like the fact that it has a bolt hold open device and the ergonomics are reasonable (even if I do have trouble with some models selector). The adjustable gas regulator is nice when teaching new shooters, makes it feel like a 223. I tend to look at this kind of thing from the military perspective so be warned we may have different ideas as to what is desireable, I also freely admit that there are many people far more qualified to respond to this than I. These are my humble opinions take it as you like.
 
DougB,
Okay. Now I have some experience with all three. I just picked up and have gone to the range with my Imbel/DSA FAL. It kicks like a mule. Maybe it's just me, but if feels like someone kicked me in the cheek (exaggerated of course) whenever I pull the trigger. MAYBE I have not adjusted the gas system but I was under the impression that they are supposed to be pre-set at the factory. Anyway, I didn't have the patience to play with it too much. It seems that it shoots well even though I barely sighted it in. Shots were consistent. Quality is very good and function seems just fine.

Models -
Understand that the models I am comparing are the following:
M1A - Springfield Armory's IDF
HK91 - Springfield SAR-8 w/PSG-1 trigger, grip & MSG-90 buttstock
FAL - Imbel receivered DS Arms kitted rifle

Fit/Finish:
(1) M1A
(2) HK91 (just by a micron though!)
(3) FAL

Accuracy:
(1) M1A
(2) HK91
(3) FAL
....the jury is still out on this one but for now the M1A/M14 is the best for me.

Recoil:
(1) HK91
(2) M1A
(3) FAL
....HK91 felt like a .223. FAL feels more brutal. M1A is right in the middle.

Trigger:
(1) HK91 - but only cuz the PSG-1 trigger group
(2) M1A - feels GREAT. Crisp. Clean. Refreshing!
(3) FAL - could be better.

Breakdown:
(1) HK91
(2) M1A
(3) FAL
...haven't broken down the FAL yet, but I expect it to be more difficult than the other two. I could be wrong.

Ergonomics:
(1) M1A
(2) HK91
(3) FAL
...I rated the FAL last because the buttstock was not at all comfortable. Since the recoil was a bit punishing the front end of that buttstock (where it slopes upward) seemed to 'kick' me in the cheek. I didn't like it. The HK91 w/MSG-90 buttstock was great, BUT can't use iron sights unless you manually adjust the cheekpiece down. Can't do that quickly. M1A - it's all right there!

I understand that it takes high maintenance to keep the M1A shooting tops and for most people that is just too much to take care of. The FAL is a great battle rifle and would probably be the first one I 'grab' if TSHTF - but I really need to adjust the gas system first! But if I had time to take my shots and I expected a 'need or want' of multiple follow-up shots then I'd grab the HK91.

Bottom line for me is that I would go with the HK91/HK911/HKSR9/HKSR9T..et al. It is by far the most expensive BUT there are so many things you can do with it. Quite versatile I'd say.

I would personally recommend to stay away from the crap that Century and Hesse puts out. If it has either of their names attached to the rifles then keep looking. (Don't mean to offend anyone that has any of those rifles but from what I have seen, I'd rather pass)
Hopefully by now DougB you've made your decision and it is one you are happy with. I honestly hope you did not make any compromises since I know when I do that I am unhappy in the long run.

Bottom line opinion:
I think you will do fine with any of the three above rifles as long as you invest in a quality product the first time around. You will not go wrong as long as you remember quality first.

Best luck and wishes during the holiday season to you all!

Remember, that this is just MY opinion and inevitably there will be MANY who will disagree with me. Please take what I said with a 'grain of salt' as it only pertains to MY experiences and MY perceptions.


[This message has been edited by Reboot (edited December 05, 1999).]
 
I have fired all the listed items, but I don't claim to be a military expert or competition shooter, so I'll just make some general observations and offer some political/legal info (I accept no responsibility for your actions because this is not legal advice and I expect you to verify any legal information with your own attorney or a suitable firearms owners group, such as the NRA or CRPA).

1. Trigger action: M1A has the best trigger, right out of the box on standard models, and it's even better on Match rifles.

2. Ergonomics: depends on user, but many people have trouble with HK91 variants.

3. Accuracy: all can be very good, but it is easiest to find match barrels and match or combat gunsmithing for the M1A.

4. Reliability: all are thoroughly proven in the field. Note that I have heard several people (3 of 7 owners) in my circle complain about the reliability of their AR-10's, indicating that they may not be debugged yet.

5. Scope mounting: expensive for all, and some bases/adapters are not too good. Be sure you get a base that is solid (i.e., don't get a base for the M1A that only attaches with the original single screw--it WILL shoot loose--get an A.R.M.S.#18 or Brookfield, instead).

6. Magazines: stick with OEM/GI mags, not aftermarket. FN mags come in at least two incompatible patterns, so be sure to get the one that matches your rifle. M1A/M-14 GI mags should have a stamped U.S. mfr. proof mark on the lower rear face, approx. one inch above the baseplate--but it might be rather faint (Chinese and others will not have the mark). You should get a minimum of 1/2 dozen mags of 20 rd. capacity, but even more would be better. 6 mags will probably be enough to get you through this lifetime, however, since all 3 rifles use strong steel mags. Due to the political climate and law enforcement overzealousness, and possible hunting use, you should also have one or two 5 round mags. They are legal for hunting (check your state laws) and they are relatively inconspicuous. They don't have the "AW" look, for times when you want to practice in public places without drawing attention to yourself. Keep in mind that some "sport" SHOOTERS still don't like "AW" users and they might be sufficiently offended that they would report you to the local gendarmes or BLM rangers. To say nothing of the hikers and bird watchers and mountain bikers who might pass by your campsite.

7. Parts: since you live in California, it would not hurt to get a basic set of spare parts for whichever one you buy. You never know when the shows and even the shops and mail order might be shut down. As a minimum, get a couple of op-rod springs, a couple of firing pins, a hammer and spring, extractor, ejector, non-captive pins and any other parts that have any record of wearing out (go to the specialized web sites for that info). I do not know if all HK parts are compatible, but I know that FN has both inch and metric parts, and the M1A has GI and Chinese parts (avoid these).

8. Political/legal considerations: In California, and possibly later nationwide, you will need to "adapt" your firearms to comply with the law if you wish to avoid registering them as "AW's" (and I can think of no reasons why you would want to be forced to register them when you can comply with the law and simultaneously not register them). Get a copy of bill SB 23 at www.sen.ca.gov and print out the page which states the features which cause a firearm to be classified as an "AW" requiring registration. Make copies of that page and keep one in the butt trap of ANY firearm which might be even remotely considered to be an "AW" (beware: some pistols and shotguns are also "AW's"). Note which features (careful--might need to remove or modify more than one) you will need to remove or modify to ensure that you do not possess an "AW". This can be a bit tricky, so contact the NRA HQ in Sacramento to find out how the law is currently being interpreted and enforced--916-446-2455. You have until Dec. 31, 2000 (not 1999) to decide if you want to register it or modify it so that it is not an "AW". Some companies will be making legal adapter kits to replace the "pistol grips" on HK and FN types. If anyone has older models, you may also need to remove the flash suppressor, bayonet lug, grenade launcher, etc. There is nothing in the law which states that you cannot simultaneously own those parts, but they may not be installed on the firearm. As a bit of practical advice, I would not store the removed parts in the same home as the firearm because in a previous case involving SKS's, the separate parts were taken into custody and miraculously found to be assembled and working in an illegal manner at a later date--and since the law enforcement officers couldn't explain how the parts came to be assembled, it was presumed to have been done by the owner. (;> ) The current M1A only needs to have the cage of the flash suppressor removed in order to be a non-"AW", and for that, you might want to buy an aftermarket (cheaper) flash suppressor or muzzle brake and cut it back to the base of the front sight. Note that muzzle brakes will be technically legal and non-"AW", but it is unlikely you will be able to explain the difference to some police officer who knows little about firearms--so just avoid the risk and make sure it doesn't extend past the base of the sight.

9. Psychological factors: it is much harder to make the HK or FN look like a traditional rifle if you want to avoid undue attention. Here, the M1A has the clear advantage, if low-profile is what you want.

I apologize for the long post, but many of these points had not been previously covered, as far as I could tell. If anyone would like to contact me, e-mail me at largebear@earthlink.net.

[This message has been edited by largebear (edited December 09, 1999).]
 
I will give you my personal story, and I think it offers some insight to your problem.

I started out with a SuperMatch M1A because I had an M1A as a kid and had to sell it to get through college, and I just wanted it. Great gun, I will never ever part with it, reliable, accurate and easy to sit and shoot up 500 rnds in a day with. (I have done this many times, lots of fun just to go punch some tight little 1" holes at a 100 yards. By the way, my Super match will put a 20 rnd mag of 168 match loads into a 1" hole at 100 yards all day long.

Since I had an M1A, I started looking at options in the 308 shell, so I shot the G3 and the FAl. (Really, why own two of the same gun?, life is to short not to try options) Both had there pros and cons, but none could match the ease of operation and shootability of the M1A. So, I bought a National Match M1A. Great gun, lighter then the Super Match, but just as fun to shoot. Again, just like the Super Match, it is accurate and easy to shoot.

Recently I picked up a standard M1A, "to round out my collection". Now I am saving for a M-21 M1A to finalize my springfield group, and I am casually investigating getting a real M-14 and all of the associated paperwork and $$$$$.

I would get the M1A, about 20 mags or so, and be happy. Parts seem to be readily available, and there are certainly a lot of them out there.

I ended up with 3 M1A's over any of the others.
 
I like both the HK and the FAL rifles...
I would be glade to take either.
Choice - I would pick the HK. Why?
Well - if these were rifles given to me - the HK is much more expensive and I have seen used FAL rifles for under 500. So I would take the HK, and go buy an FAL...

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"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." - Sigmund Freud
We, the people, are tired of being taxed, penalized, supervised, harassed,
and subjugated by a federal government which exceeds the powers
enumerated in the U.S. Constitution.
 
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