FMJ's vs Hollow's for self defense
- Thread starter DonutGuy
- Start date
Deaf Smith
New member
Heck man, you never drove through Dallas rush hour traffic!
Edward429451
Moderator
You think I'm beatin up on cops? You think I want to be a cop? We're talking about over penetration and liabilities here, if it hits a nerve with you...with all due respect, that's not my problem. No one was talking to you so don't have a chip on your shoulder and think that what I say has anything to do with you because you don't get that honor. Sir.
Generally speaking, on average...most cops do not shoot well and that is statistics. I'm sure that a small percentage of officers do practice and are all super cop and good shots, good for you.
You seem to want to make the point that I couldn't do what you do, that you have something more than I? Yes sir, you can have that one. All that super cool sounding day at work stuff you list for ~35K a year? I wouldn't do it for 100K a year so yeah, you got something I don't there!
You don't sound happy with your job. You're too irratible. Take a couple days off man, you got no enemies here. Just calm down.
Generally speaking, on average...most cops do not shoot well and that is statistics. I'm sure that a small percentage of officers do practice and are all super cop and good shots, good for you.
You seem to want to make the point that I couldn't do what you do, that you have something more than I? Yes sir, you can have that one. All that super cool sounding day at work stuff you list for ~35K a year? I wouldn't do it for 100K a year so yeah, you got something I don't there!
You don't sound happy with your job. You're too irratible. Take a couple days off man, you got no enemies here. Just calm down.
1. NYPD tried FMJs. It didn't work for them and it won't work well for you
2. I've never seen one bit of credible information to lead me to believe FMJs are appropriate, in anything larger than a 32 acp, for self defense, ever.
3. Misses have nothing to do with which round is better for self defense so I wish people would stop muddying the water with that nonsense. Its a BULLET. Its DEADLY. If it works better on the person you intend to hit it will work the same on the person you DIDN'T intend to hit. We all have that figured out.
4. Why am I doing this in a list format? Its annoying but I already did it so get over it.
2. I've never seen one bit of credible information to lead me to believe FMJs are appropriate, in anything larger than a 32 acp, for self defense, ever.
3. Misses have nothing to do with which round is better for self defense so I wish people would stop muddying the water with that nonsense. Its a BULLET. Its DEADLY. If it works better on the person you intend to hit it will work the same on the person you DIDN'T intend to hit. We all have that figured out.
4. Why am I doing this in a list format? Its annoying but I already did it so get over it.
"misses have nothing to do with self defense"...
WRONG!
Carrying a loaded firearm in public and firing it at a violent attacker or dangerous animal may not be important to you but I'm sure there are many sworn LE officers, licensed PIs-security guards, CCW permit holders etc who do care about misses!
If you think carrying FMJ rounds is smart, fine. If you want to use JHP, exotic or fragmented loads(Glaser Safety Slugs, Magsafe, PowRball, TAP, etc) then it's your choice. But whatever you use, you should know how it works and if you can shoot it accurately.
If you packed a Glock 21 or 17 in a large urban area with FMJ or some Super-Death loads then in a critical incident started to spray rounds all over like a bullet hose, you'd be very lucky if all you lost was your weapons license or CCW permit.
Clyde
WRONG!
Carrying a loaded firearm in public and firing it at a violent attacker or dangerous animal may not be important to you but I'm sure there are many sworn LE officers, licensed PIs-security guards, CCW permit holders etc who do care about misses!
If you think carrying FMJ rounds is smart, fine. If you want to use JHP, exotic or fragmented loads(Glaser Safety Slugs, Magsafe, PowRball, TAP, etc) then it's your choice. But whatever you use, you should know how it works and if you can shoot it accurately.
If you packed a Glock 21 or 17 in a large urban area with FMJ or some Super-Death loads then in a critical incident started to spray rounds all over like a bullet hose, you'd be very lucky if all you lost was your weapons license or CCW permit.
Clyde
Are you attempting to quote me?? Where did I say this? I never said that in the least. If you take the time to get all fired up and post some drivel in response to something you might want to take the time to see if it was actually said in the first place. READING FAIL.
Its also a LOGIC FAIL for that matter. While everything you said is true, in some fashion or another, its beyond me how you came to the conclusion that I disagree with ANY of it. Get a grip will ya!?!?!
Last edited:
Jon in WV's 3rd Verse...
J-W-V;
It's your 3rd verse; a round that "misses" a subject can hit a bystander or injury/kill another person; NOT involved.
Now does that happen in war? Yes. Does that happen in LE or armed citizen shootings? Yes. Should it happen at all? NO!!!!
As I said(and that you too agree with in your own special way), a armed citizen or armed professional should choose & train with a selected handgun round(s) BEFORE they carry it on duty or CCW.
ClydeF
J-W-V;
It's your 3rd verse; a round that "misses" a subject can hit a bystander or injury/kill another person; NOT involved.
Now does that happen in war? Yes. Does that happen in LE or armed citizen shootings? Yes. Should it happen at all? NO!!!!
As I said(and that you too agree with in your own special way), a armed citizen or armed professional should choose & train with a selected handgun round(s) BEFORE they carry it on duty or CCW.
ClydeF
I would not recommend the use of FMJ in the larger calibers. Why? Overpenetration.
.45 Ball WILL create a through and through wound of the human body. Most of the time it will do so, even if it hits bone.
Remember that the bullet itself does NOT cause incapacitation--it is the destruction of the internal structure, caused by a violent hydraulic displacement, that will induce shock and cause the attacker to cease functioning.
Now, it is common knowledge that a person who is pumped on pure adrenaline WILL fight on, or will/can travel amazing distances, even with lethal, fatal wounds inflicted. The phrase, "He was dead-he just didn't realize it yet" is all too true.
Thus, we always train--and have been told, numerous times through the experiences of those who have been there--that you aim center of mass of the body. This aiming area contains the "boiler works"--major arteries, the heart, lungs, etc. If, Heaven forbid, you HAVE to shoot, you want to hit the assailant with something that will create a massive, violent hydraulic displacement. When an object hits a fluid medium, the fluid displaced will be traveling for a short distance at the same speed as the projectile. Next, remember that the larger the impact cross-section, the larger the amount of fluid medium that is displaced by the impact.
A hollow point projectile is desireable because it expands (under most circumstances) and presents a wider cross section, thus causing more violent displacement of the fluid medium.
.45 Ball WILL create a through and through wound of the human body. Most of the time it will do so, even if it hits bone.
Remember that the bullet itself does NOT cause incapacitation--it is the destruction of the internal structure, caused by a violent hydraulic displacement, that will induce shock and cause the attacker to cease functioning.
Now, it is common knowledge that a person who is pumped on pure adrenaline WILL fight on, or will/can travel amazing distances, even with lethal, fatal wounds inflicted. The phrase, "He was dead-he just didn't realize it yet" is all too true.
Thus, we always train--and have been told, numerous times through the experiences of those who have been there--that you aim center of mass of the body. This aiming area contains the "boiler works"--major arteries, the heart, lungs, etc. If, Heaven forbid, you HAVE to shoot, you want to hit the assailant with something that will create a massive, violent hydraulic displacement. When an object hits a fluid medium, the fluid displaced will be traveling for a short distance at the same speed as the projectile. Next, remember that the larger the impact cross-section, the larger the amount of fluid medium that is displaced by the impact.
A hollow point projectile is desireable because it expands (under most circumstances) and presents a wider cross section, thus causing more violent displacement of the fluid medium.
That's not what I hear from Vietnam veterans. According to people who have actually killed other people with .45 ACP, the bullet tends to expand after impacting bone and wander between the bone and fatty tissue. Keep in mind, the average Vietnamese male weighed about 130lbs. and didn't wear heavy clothing.
By "bone," I am referring to the femur, humerus, scapula, and the like, not phalanges or floating ribs. All bones are not created equal.
I have never heard of .45 ACP ball having overpenetration problems, even when fired from an SMG.
I'm not an expert...but my father is.
"all fall to hardball".....
The last few posts have valid points but I'd add this;
"back in the day" the FMJ or hardball milspec 230gr .45acp had a 1 shot stop record in real US shootings of around 65%. 9mmNATO type FMJ(124gr) had roughly the same #s in documented LE records.
In the 1960s/1970s the late Jim Cirello(check spelling) who was highly respected in the NYPD and later US Customs(FLETC firearms instructor), said the NYPD Surgeon advised his Stake-Out unit detectives to aim for the lower pevis area. The Dr informed them that this area provided a larger target and would disable an armed felon(stop movement/flight). He also said the lower torso may not be protected by body armor,. If you research Cirello and his background, he was involved in real gunfights and R&Ded handgun ammunition.
I support using JHP, fragmented loads but as I stated for tactical reasons, using milspec or FMJ type pistol rounds have value too. Practical application should dictate your response to a deadly force or critical incident.
The last few posts have valid points but I'd add this;
"back in the day" the FMJ or hardball milspec 230gr .45acp had a 1 shot stop record in real US shootings of around 65%. 9mmNATO type FMJ(124gr) had roughly the same #s in documented LE records.
In the 1960s/1970s the late Jim Cirello(check spelling) who was highly respected in the NYPD and later US Customs(FLETC firearms instructor), said the NYPD Surgeon advised his Stake-Out unit detectives to aim for the lower pevis area. The Dr informed them that this area provided a larger target and would disable an armed felon(stop movement/flight). He also said the lower torso may not be protected by body armor,
. If you research Cirello and his background, he was involved in real gunfights and R&Ded handgun ammunition.I support using JHP, fragmented loads but as I stated for tactical reasons, using milspec or FMJ type pistol rounds have value too. Practical application should dictate your response to a deadly force or critical incident.
Regarding the effect of people who fight on when hit, everyone should think about deer hunting. Deer are notoriously tough animals. I've heard of far too many of them hit with effective hunting rounds that still ran off. I'm not talking about marginal hits, I'm talking about lung or heart hits, and that thing took off running and didn't stop until blood loss rendered it unconscious.
Why? Because they are animals, and in animals, the fight and flight instincts are all they have. They didn't learn from television that they are supposed to die when hit.
What happens when someone goes down because he was hit by a .25 acp? seriously, you just conned him into believing he should be dead. Someone in contact with his animal side, so to speak, is going to keep fighting until he either wins, or becomes totally disabled.
Some people will fight through pain, and fight through injury, and be willing to dismiss the fear and other emotions that would disable others. These are the guys who earn the medals by performing while grievously wounded. These are also the guys that will kill you when you go up against them in combat. Ask the FBI. What do I want on hand when I find one of these guys? Really? body armor, a taser, and a freakin chain saw. Maybe a nuclear bomb.
But, as said, you compromise and hope for the best. That's why we carry handguns and try to find whatever it will take to make them stop fighting.
Why? Because they are animals, and in animals, the fight and flight instincts are all they have. They didn't learn from television that they are supposed to die when hit.
What happens when someone goes down because he was hit by a .25 acp? seriously, you just conned him into believing he should be dead. Someone in contact with his animal side, so to speak, is going to keep fighting until he either wins, or becomes totally disabled.
Some people will fight through pain, and fight through injury, and be willing to dismiss the fear and other emotions that would disable others. These are the guys who earn the medals by performing while grievously wounded. These are also the guys that will kill you when you go up against them in combat. Ask the FBI. What do I want on hand when I find one of these guys? Really? body armor, a taser, and a freakin chain saw. Maybe a nuclear bomb.
But, as said, you compromise and hope for the best. That's why we carry handguns and try to find whatever it will take to make them stop fighting.
Clyde, I don't know what your difficulty is here but here is what I posted.
I NEVER said misses have "nothing to do with self defense". I don't know what is your issue that you don't get that. What I was saying is that in a discussion about terminal effectiveness, misses aren't a factor on the terminal effectiveness of the bullet. It hits any target just the same. Misses are a training issue. You have twisted that all around for some reason which is exactly why I said it had no place in a terminal ballistic discussion to start with. READING FAIL TWICE.
You also have your facts screwy on a few other things. The "one stop shot percentage" figures have pretty much been discredited as junk science long ago. Your statement about Mr. Cirillo added nothing to the discussion. Jim Cirillo developed the "Laws Grabber" bullets. Since you don't apparatnly carry those bringing him up had no merit. Again, you are trying to muddy the water by using J. Cirillo to talk about shot PLACEMENT instead of ballistics. Perhaps you should change your name to ClydeRedHerring as it seems you really like to introduce red herrings a LOT. Lastly, please explain what "hollowpoint, fragmented loads" are? If you are referring to the Magsafe or Glaser rounds you aren't going to find too many people that agree with you on that one. I find it interesting you talk about using fragmented loads and shooting for the pelvis in the same paragraph. None of the prefragmented loads are going to be very effective breaking a pelvic bone compared to any decent JHP or ball ammo.
This thread is supposed to be about which is more effective, JHP or FMJ. Try sticking to the subject.
I NEVER said misses have "nothing to do with self defense". I don't know what is your issue that you don't get that. What I was saying is that in a discussion about terminal effectiveness, misses aren't a factor on the terminal effectiveness of the bullet. It hits any target just the same. Misses are a training issue. You have twisted that all around for some reason which is exactly why I said it had no place in a terminal ballistic discussion to start with. READING FAIL TWICE.
You also have your facts screwy on a few other things. The "one stop shot percentage" figures have pretty much been discredited as junk science long ago. Your statement about Mr. Cirillo added nothing to the discussion. Jim Cirillo developed the "Laws Grabber" bullets. Since you don't apparatnly carry those bringing him up had no merit. Again, you are trying to muddy the water by using J. Cirillo to talk about shot PLACEMENT instead of ballistics. Perhaps you should change your name to ClydeRedHerring as it seems you really like to introduce red herrings a LOT. Lastly, please explain what "hollowpoint, fragmented loads" are? If you are referring to the Magsafe or Glaser rounds you aren't going to find too many people that agree with you on that one. I find it interesting you talk about using fragmented loads and shooting for the pelvis in the same paragraph. None of the prefragmented loads are going to be very effective breaking a pelvic bone compared to any decent JHP or ball ammo.
This thread is supposed to be about which is more effective, JHP or FMJ. Try sticking to the subject.
Last edited:
That's if it hits the bone, and is not 100% reliable as fact.
A close friend of mine managed to shoot himself in the leg with a .45 ACP ball round; specifically, it was Winchester 230 grain FMJ.
The round entered the top of his thigh, went through the bone, shattered it, and exited. Entry wound was a bit larger than the caliber of the bullet. Exit wound was of almost the same caliber. He was told by the responding officers and hospital personnel that if the round had been of a JHP design, he would have bled out in less than a minute.
After some care, and about a year of time on the mend, he is not running, playing basketball, and otherwise functioning normally.
No bullet is a one shot stopper--guaranteed. A poster above noted an example with a .25 ACP.
An interesting and maybe relevant thought is something I read a couple times about bison hunting. Whereas the indian attacked herds and used panic and chaos to their advantage, the white buffalo hunters went at it like prairie dog hunters. a herd that was content grazing would ignore the shots. A hunter would pick out his target, blow a hole through its lungs, and most of the time, they would drop to their knees, bleed out, and die without moving. They could shoot until the things finally panicked, or just moved on. If a bad hit, say a smashed shoulder left the things thrashing and fighting to stay on its feet, that would sometimes be enough to start the things into moving off.
A man with a rifle was a brand new predator to them. They never had a chance to learn what it was like, or how to survive that sort of attack.
This is what I've read several times.
I'm also reminded of Ed **** who went to deer camp ONCE with my dad. he scored a hit on a little buck, and did a great job. he smashed one of the things hind legs and gut shot it. The thing survived long enough for him to herd it back into camp, maybe a mile, where he head shot it next to the fire.
Plenty of wounded POWs had the same treatement, I'm sure.
A man with a rifle was a brand new predator to them. They never had a chance to learn what it was like, or how to survive that sort of attack.
This is what I've read several times.
I'm also reminded of Ed **** who went to deer camp ONCE with my dad. he scored a hit on a little buck, and did a great job. he smashed one of the things hind legs and gut shot it. The thing survived long enough for him to herd it back into camp, maybe a mile, where he head shot it next to the fire.
Plenty of wounded POWs had the same treatement, I'm sure.
Jon's fishy remarks, use of pistol ammunition, NYPD
Jon, Jon, Jon;
First, I stated Cirello did his own research & development(R&D) on handgun rounds. He did this in part to improve the ballistics and use of duty rounds for himself and other sworn LE/armed citizens.
He did not have access to Magsafe, Glaser or TAP type loads as a Stake-Out unit detective. If he did, the real, documented NYPD events he was involved in may have turned out differently.
You are correct in your post that a missed round could do the same type of damage or have the same impact on a human if they were a violent felon or not but I'm saying that both power level(KE, vel, penetration, etc) or design and shot placement are important factors when picking a handgun round.
If a handgun owner, PI, armed security officer or sworn LE officer in 2010 thinks a Glaser, ExtremeShock or TAP round is a better choice for a large urban area then so be it.
Jon, Jon, Jon;
First, I stated Cirello did his own research & development(R&D) on handgun rounds. He did this in part to improve the ballistics and use of duty rounds for himself and other sworn LE/armed citizens.
He did not have access to Magsafe, Glaser or TAP type loads as a Stake-Out unit detective. If he did, the real, documented NYPD events he was involved in may have turned out differently.
You are correct in your post that a missed round could do the same type of damage or have the same impact on a human if they were a violent felon or not but I'm saying that both power level(KE, vel, penetration, etc) or design and shot placement are important factors when picking a handgun round.
If a handgun owner, PI, armed security officer or sworn LE officer in 2010 thinks a Glaser, ExtremeShock or TAP round is a better choice for a large urban area then so be it.
Clyde, Clyde, Clyde.
Your boorish behavior does no one any favors. You introduce one red herring after another to try to shift away from the real topic which you apparently don't have any real knowledge of. The real topic is FMJ or JHP.
If I was you, I would also do some research on the pre-fragmented rounds. It seems you missed the last 20 years when the rest of us figured out that Marshal and Sanow were wrong and junk science isn't the best method to choose our defensive ammo. You also ignore the many, many holes in your logic when they are pointed out for all to see. You are right about one thing, Cirillo used ammo in his shootings 20+ years ago. His Law Grabbers sold like wildfire didn't they. (Those are the rounds he developed, since it doesn't seem you knew that). Things have changed a little since then. I think you have about 20 years worth of reading to do so you can get caught up. There have been a few advances in ammo the last 20 years. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised when you catch up to the rest of us.
I'm not even sure how to address this smarmy remark. I'll assume that you were unaware of the problems NYPD had when it chose the 9mm FMJ as its duty round but I'll give you a break because it did happen in the last 20 years and you probably didn't hear about it. I can send you a link to an article about it if you would like.
Somebody get this back on topic. I'm tapping out.
Your boorish behavior does no one any favors. You introduce one red herring after another to try to shift away from the real topic which you apparently don't have any real knowledge of. The real topic is FMJ or JHP.
If I was you, I would also do some research on the pre-fragmented rounds. It seems you missed the last 20 years when the rest of us figured out that Marshal and Sanow were wrong and junk science isn't the best method to choose our defensive ammo. You also ignore the many, many holes in your logic when they are pointed out for all to see. You are right about one thing, Cirillo used ammo in his shootings 20+ years ago. His Law Grabbers sold like wildfire didn't they. (Those are the rounds he developed, since it doesn't seem you knew that). Things have changed a little since then. I think you have about 20 years worth of reading to do so you can get caught up. There have been a few advances in ammo the last 20 years. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised when you catch up to the rest of us.
I'm not even sure how to address this smarmy remark. I'll assume that you were unaware of the problems NYPD had when it chose the 9mm FMJ as its duty round but I'll give you a break because it did happen in the last 20 years and you probably didn't hear about it. I can send you a link to an article about it if you would like.
Somebody get this back on topic. I'm tapping out.
Last edited:
Head-Space
Moderator
Geneva Convention -- or one of those -- banned JHP because they're "inhumane" and "destructive." So much for "rules of engagement." In self-defense there is no Geneva Convention to ban use of potent, expanding bullets.
Here's a tip. Take your 230 gr. FMJ in 45 ACP and fire it into wet pack newspaper (5 gal. bucket full of water soaked, packed newspaper). Take a look at the "wound channel" and recover the bullet. There's no deformation in the bullet, and the "wound channel" is pretty much a half-inch hole.
Same target with a JHP, same weight, same caliber, same charge/load. You get a "wound channel" you can stick your fist into, impact splits the bucket and blows out both ends. Recovered bullet will be approx. an inch in diameter.
FMJ are NOT for self-defense. Period.
Here's a tip. Take your 230 gr. FMJ in 45 ACP and fire it into wet pack newspaper (5 gal. bucket full of water soaked, packed newspaper). Take a look at the "wound channel" and recover the bullet. There's no deformation in the bullet, and the "wound channel" is pretty much a half-inch hole.
Same target with a JHP, same weight, same caliber, same charge/load. You get a "wound channel" you can stick your fist into, impact splits the bucket and blows out both ends. Recovered bullet will be approx. an inch in diameter.
FMJ are NOT for self-defense. Period.
So what we've learned so far....
A) The information/research from a sworn LE officer who carried handguns, shotguns and rifles in a densely populated urban area then wrote & taught about his experiences(including documented use of force shootings) has "no bearing" on the discussion of using JHPs & FMJs in defense firearms.
B) TFL members should "read" the posts and stay on the topic. Like my #51 post that Jon-WV later disputed then later(in the very same post) post complained about my "going off topic".
C) Whether a armed citizen chooses a JHP or FMJ they should train or maintain a certain level of marksmanship to avoid missing in a critical incident.
Fragmented or spec purpose loads also reduce the related risks but that is the choice of the citizen, LE officer or security officer.
Clyde
A) The information/research from a sworn LE officer who carried handguns, shotguns and rifles in a densely populated urban area then wrote & taught about his experiences(including documented use of force shootings) has "no bearing" on the discussion of using JHPs & FMJs in defense firearms.
B) TFL members should "read" the posts and stay on the topic. Like my #51 post that Jon-WV later disputed then later(in the very same post) post complained about my "going off topic".
C) Whether a armed citizen chooses a JHP or FMJ they should train or maintain a certain level of marksmanship to avoid missing in a critical incident.
Fragmented or spec purpose loads also reduce the related risks but that is the choice of the citizen, LE officer or security officer.
Clyde