oneounceload
Moderator
Just unloaded your gun before going inside and put your ammo in your pocket, then reload it when you leave - what's the big deal? Too many yahoos bringing guns in to sell and forgetting to remove the round from the chamber
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Floridians....gun show and concealed carry issues...
- Thread starter Carry_24/7
- Start date
From the point of view of an NRA Instructor (yep, I'm a new one), where you have firearms and loaded ammunition, you have 2 of the 3 things required for an incidental discharge. Safety would dictate removing another 1 of those things for everyone's sake when ever possible.
Carry, what you don't understand is that a person's (or corporation's) property rights will always override any perceived concealed carry rights unless the legislature has give specific precident to carry rights. In the case of a gun show, both the owner of the facility and its leasee (i.e. the gunshow promoter) have property rights that trump your perceived carry right.
Crazy88Fingers
New member
I didn't mean to "nanny nanny poo poo" on anyone, but it's a very simple concept that some people apparently aren't grasping.
Their house, their rules.
790.33 only establishes that cities and counties can't pass gun laws, it's the state's domain. Nowhere does it mention private property owners.
Their house, their rules.
790.33 only establishes that cities and counties can't pass gun laws, it's the state's domain. Nowhere does it mention private property owners.
I would point out that most gun shows are held at facilities (fairgrounds in the case of Volusia County) owned by county or municipal governments thus making the barring of legal concealed carry fall under the perview of 790.33. The Fl Sate Fair recently had to revisit it's prohibition on weapons and ensure the security guards at the entrances knew people with a concealed weapons permit were allowed to enter with their weapons.
link: http://www2.tbo.com/news/politics/2012/feb/15/2/you-can-now-pack-heat-at-the-state-fair-ar-358920/
I would also point out that nowhere in 790.06 is there mention that a Fl concealed weapons permit becomes invalid in any place except for the named exceptions (schools, courthouses, police stations, etc) and in fact, in 790.06 (15) the last two sentences are as follows:
I would say the law is very clear in that no one can bar concealed carry except the legislature. The only exception to that would be the Federal Governments ability to change the rules on federal property (as they did recently allowing CCW in National Parks) or on property that is operated under contract to the federal government per 790.251 (7)(g)
The conclusion I have drawn from this and that I and many others (including law enforcement) operate under is that a no weapons sign is just paint on a building or colored plastic. It has no bearing on my right to carry a concealed weapon under Fl law. Similarly a LEO at the entrance to a Gun Show asking me if I have any loaded weapons is just making conversaton and if I do not tell him I have a loaded weapon thus causing him to ask me to leave, I have committed no crime.
I do believe that the LEO would have cause to bar entry to anyone attempting to enter with a loaded firearm they are bringing to the show for the purpose of sale or trade as their transportation of the firearm in that case is covered elsewhere under Fl law and I do not think that is the main topic of discussion here.
link: http://www2.tbo.com/news/politics/2012/feb/15/2/you-can-now-pack-heat-at-the-state-fair-ar-358920/
I would also point out that nowhere in 790.06 is there mention that a Fl concealed weapons permit becomes invalid in any place except for the named exceptions (schools, courthouses, police stations, etc) and in fact, in 790.06 (15) the last two sentences are as follows:
Florida statutes said:This section shall be liberally construed to carry out the constitutional right to bear arms for self-defense. This section is supplemental and additional to existing rights to bear arms, and nothing in this section shall impair or diminish such rights.
I would say the law is very clear in that no one can bar concealed carry except the legislature. The only exception to that would be the Federal Governments ability to change the rules on federal property (as they did recently allowing CCW in National Parks) or on property that is operated under contract to the federal government per 790.251 (7)(g)
The conclusion I have drawn from this and that I and many others (including law enforcement) operate under is that a no weapons sign is just paint on a building or colored plastic. It has no bearing on my right to carry a concealed weapon under Fl law. Similarly a LEO at the entrance to a Gun Show asking me if I have any loaded weapons is just making conversaton and if I do not tell him I have a loaded weapon thus causing him to ask me to leave, I have committed no crime.
I do believe that the LEO would have cause to bar entry to anyone attempting to enter with a loaded firearm they are bringing to the show for the purpose of sale or trade as their transportation of the firearm in that case is covered elsewhere under Fl law and I do not think that is the main topic of discussion here.
Doyle,
There is nothing in the law that allows them to do that. The only thing a property owner can do, is ask you to leave if they somehow discover you have a weapon. The same way they can ask anyone else to leave if they do something the property owner does not like. (or heck if the property owner does not like their haircut)
Their sign or wishes in no way invalidates a State of Florida concealed weapons permit.
When I first got my CWP I studied the law a lot and Florida's rules with regard to signage were one thing I looked up. Suffice it to say I found nothing and I periodically check the relevant statutes to make sure they have not changed. If you can point me to a statute that supports your arguement I would be glad to read it.
There is nothing in the law that allows them to do that. The only thing a property owner can do, is ask you to leave if they somehow discover you have a weapon. The same way they can ask anyone else to leave if they do something the property owner does not like. (or heck if the property owner does not like their haircut)
Their sign or wishes in no way invalidates a State of Florida concealed weapons permit.
When I first got my CWP I studied the law a lot and Florida's rules with regard to signage were one thing I looked up. Suffice it to say I found nothing and I periodically check the relevant statutes to make sure they have not changed. If you can point me to a statute that supports your arguement I would be glad to read it.
oneounceload
Moderator
Wrong they can and do have that right, as do you to prevent someone from entering your home with a gun. The state does not over rule that. Private employers cannot prevent you fom having your ccw in your car in the parking lot (certain exemptions allowed) , but they sure can prevent you from carrying inside their facility
Carry_24/7
New member
Oneounce, I believe AikBiker is pretty accurate, as he is agreeing that anyone has the right to ask you to leave their property, and once they do you must...that's not argued.
Now, turning the tables, in Florida, it is not a crime to licensed CC on private property, the state even has issue with businesses posting signs against it.. So, how do you as the owner that wants to ban a CCer know that someone is CCing? If they are properly CCing, the weapon is, well, concealed...right? So how would you know to ask a CCer to leave if his weapon remains concealed?
A main issue with this thread was, "does a police officer who is working a part-time shift for a gunshow operator have the authority to, on the behalf of the private employer, ask you if you are carrying concealed and to unload your weapon.....and if you disregard the officer, lie and proceed, are you committing a crime, and if so, what crime?
If a Walmart manager stands at the door and asks that all CCers unload their weapons before entering, there's no crime committed if you look at him, lie "no guns no ammo sir" and proceed. Now, replace that Walmart manager with a police officer, not working on the city clock, but instead working for Walmart part-time, but wearing his city uniform and badge, and have him ask he same questions and give the same directions.....now we're on another playing field...or are we?
My intent was, what is the actual authority of such police officers in such a situation? Are they a "placebo", and cant actually enforce a rule of a private employer/property owner that actually goes against state law, or can they? I'm pretty much done with Florida gun shows anyway, but I thought this would be an interesting conversation....
Remember.....the police officer is asking you if you are doing something that is clearly legal in the state of Florida.....
Now, turning the tables, in Florida, it is not a crime to licensed CC on private property, the state even has issue with businesses posting signs against it.. So, how do you as the owner that wants to ban a CCer know that someone is CCing? If they are properly CCing, the weapon is, well, concealed...right? So how would you know to ask a CCer to leave if his weapon remains concealed?
A main issue with this thread was, "does a police officer who is working a part-time shift for a gunshow operator have the authority to, on the behalf of the private employer, ask you if you are carrying concealed and to unload your weapon.....and if you disregard the officer, lie and proceed, are you committing a crime, and if so, what crime?
If a Walmart manager stands at the door and asks that all CCers unload their weapons before entering, there's no crime committed if you look at him, lie "no guns no ammo sir" and proceed. Now, replace that Walmart manager with a police officer, not working on the city clock, but instead working for Walmart part-time, but wearing his city uniform and badge, and have him ask he same questions and give the same directions.....now we're on another playing field...or are we?
My intent was, what is the actual authority of such police officers in such a situation? Are they a "placebo", and cant actually enforce a rule of a private employer/property owner that actually goes against state law, or can they? I'm pretty much done with Florida gun shows anyway, but I thought this would be an interesting conversation....
Remember.....the police officer is asking you if you are doing something that is clearly legal in the state of Florida.....
oneounceload
Moderator
Try carrying your gun to work in a nuclear power plant and see what happens. Try carrying your gun on posted private land and see what happens. The law was changed to allow you to have your CCW in your locked car at an employers business, but he can still prevent you from carrying it inside; private property rights trump others. Why would you lie and commit armed trespass? Don't like the rules, go someplace else
war_elephant
New member
Up here, we go to PA for gun shows, they say no loaded firearms (CCW exempted) I am not sure about Florida, but many of the gunshows I have been to and even Cabelas in PA and in Maine state that CCW is not included in the loaded firearms ban, Long guns or hanguns brought for sale are normally zip tied through the action to verify that they are not loaded. Kinda makes me feel better. I often carry a loaded handgun, and this has never been a problem for me. Also, I wouldnt lie about it, "the truth shall set you free". I would state that I have a ccw, but I have no firearms that are intended to be sold or handled at the show. If they asked me to unload, I would do so. I could always load up again if NECESSARY, but I think I am going to be ok at a gun show. Again, Fla may be different, never been to one in Florida, and most Gun shows dont have the great deals they used to have.
My .02 1/2 cents.
My .02 1/2 cents.
Carry_24/7
New member
A nuclear power plant?
These arguments are never won....people simply get to state their position. I believe we've done so.
These arguments are never won....people simply get to state their position. I believe we've done so.
Old Smoker
New member
Could this be more of a who owns the gun issue?
Attending a recent gun show in Wisconsn, if you brought a gun to sell, you had to stop and get a tag for the gun. At which time it was checked for loaded ammo. There are some, that would walk in with a empty holster and walk out with a full one. This might be more about table theft, than anything else.
Attending a recent gun show in Wisconsn, if you brought a gun to sell, you had to stop and get a tag for the gun. At which time it was checked for loaded ammo. There are some, that would walk in with a empty holster and walk out with a full one. This might be more about table theft, than anything else.
oneounceload
Moderator
A nuclear power plant?
These arguments are never won....people simply get to state their position. I believe we've done so.
Lots of power plants here and lots of folks work at them, however they fall under DHS and become exempt fro, FL laws, same with many other locations....then there is private property rights -while your employer in most instances has to allow you to have your ccw in your car in their parking lot, carrying into work if they have said no is a termination offense; same analogy for the gun shows - if you hate their rules, it is really simple - DON'T GO THERE
oneonceload said:while your employer in most instances has to allow you to have your ccw in your car in their parking lot, carrying into work if they have said no is a termination offense;
Firing does not equal getting arrested. And that is what we are talking about here. Whether or not you can get arrested for ignoring the no weapons rules at the gun show. And it seems to me like while you could get thrown out of the gunshow (and really that isn't such a bad thing considerign the last gunshow I went to) but you will not go to jail.
It is even up for grabs whether you can LEGALLY be thrown out, if the gunshow is being held on property owned by a county or municiple government. That would appear to be prohibited under the pre-emption law.
oneonceload said:Lots of power plants here and lots of folks work at them, however they fall under DHS and become exempt fro, FL laws, same with many other locations
Here is a link to what you are referencing: http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes...ng=&URL=0700-0799/0790/Sections/0790.251.html
You are looking for section 7 of the law which are exceptions to the right to keep weapons in vehicles in Fl.
Justice06RR
New member
Crazy88; "if you don't like it you can".....and "nanny, nanny, poo-poo" type comments are not of assistance, but thanks anyway...
I got some good info out of this, thanks for contributing, I wanted to hear what some other serious gunners thought of this. I do comply with the orders of the officers, and will continue to do so....if I ever visit another gun show in Florida........signing off.
What's not to understand? Private business may pose their rules on firearms, although it might not carry the weight of the law.
If you want to argue it, go ahead with the FHP/LEO's at the door.
Its the same deal with some gun stores. they may prohibit a loaded firearm by a CC-er. Can you walk in there with your loaded EDC, sure. If they find out they can kick you out. Same concept - they just don't have LEO's at the door.
I emailed Florida Gun Shows and below is the response I received about loaded concealed carry while in the show,
Answer,
I am curious as to why concealed wepon permit holders are required to unload there weapons and not permited to carry a loaded weapon while at the show?
Answer,
Unfortunately, Due to the nature of the show and insurance policies, we do and can not allow
Lindy Gasdorf,
Florida Gun Shows, Inc
Office 407-275-7233
Fax 407-275-7526