Wildalaska
Moderator
Wherever they need to ask.
WilditscrimewearetalkingaboutAlaska ™
Florida police asking gunshops for info
- Thread starter 44 AMP
- Start date
Wherever they need to ask.
WilditscrimewearetalkingaboutAlaska ™
Every firearm transferred in the US is supposed to be reported to the FBI, both long guns and hand guns. Some states do not cooperate, in part or at all, but in those states that do not cooperate, the FFL is required to fill out the form.Don H said:
And yes, they do not have make, model or serial number in the NICS database, but they do know the name and address and type of gun (long gun or handgun) of every registered firearm transfer.
Untrue. Many states allow private-party sales, and those are not reported. If the transfer goes through an FFL, a 4473 is required. The requirement that FFL's do the 4473 is Federal, and is required in all states.
Nope. NICS only knows the type of weapon (handgun, long gun, or "other"). They do not ask for make, model or serial number. Furthermore, the buyer's address is not recorded.
As for the investigation at hand, it's the dealer's call as to whether or not to respond. If law enforcement has the gun in hand, then it's easier to simply do a trace request through the BATFE, in which case the dealer's participation is mandatory.
Shane Tuttle
Staff
Sarge said:
I agree with Sarge. If I ran a gunshop and there's a specific crime they're investigating, I would open up my books to the specific records they seek. There's a balance between generating rapport with LE, assisting the pursuit of justice, and maintaining trust from your customers.
If the police are asking about a specific weapon then you can be prety sure they have evidence to lead them to believe that is what was used. As to that being kept quiet, they don't release every bit of info to the public about crimes. Some is held back that only the criminal or others involved would know about.
The attitude and paranoia on here of some people is really amazing...I guarantee if the victims were one of your relatives you would want the police asking this and every other question they can come up with to solve the murders. They are asking for voluntary, specific info limited to certain dates and a certain firearm and specific crime and there is nothing unreasonable about this at all.
The attitude and paranoia on here of some people is really amazing...I guarantee if the victims were one of your relatives you would want the police asking this and every other question they can come up with to solve the murders. They are asking for voluntary, specific info limited to certain dates and a certain firearm and specific crime and there is nothing unreasonable about this at all.
vranasaurus
New member
Federal law prohibits the maintenance of any registry of firearms at the federal level. There is no law requiring that sales be reported to the FBI.
The NICS must destroy all identifying information on allowed transactions prior to the start of the next NICS operational day. They don't keep a list of names and addresses of purchasers with the types of guns purchased.
Mike Irwin
Staff
Asking local gunshops for sales information on a specific type of firearm is how Virginia police solved the killings of several CIA employees in the early 1990s.
How exactly, does having a list of all people in central Florida that purchased a .40 Sigma between 2004-05 from a licensed dealer help track down a serial killer?
Unless they have a suspect and are trying to tie him to having purchased a .40 Sigma, I see no benefit. Or do they plan on knocking on every door and asking for a voluntary ballistic sample from each firearm like they did back when the DC Sniper was running around?
Unless they have a suspect and are trying to tie him to having purchased a .40 Sigma, I see no benefit. Or do they plan on knocking on every door and asking for a voluntary ballistic sample from each firearm like they did back when the DC Sniper was running around?
Double Naught Spy
New member
I don't see where this brings up any question about the legality of such requests. The police can ask anything they want given that the gunshop owners are not under arrest and requesting a lawyer be present.
Yeah, they could ask other questions!
Wait, isn't that part of the whole investigatory process, asking questions?
Regular business records do not have any special protection, and since the 4473 is a 'regular business record' for a gun dealer, they can look at them at will.
Do you really think an FFL is going to hire attorneys and fight about it on your behalf?
Banks will cough up your data almost for the asking.
The same with the phone company. The new digital switches keep a record of EVERY CALL MADE. Both originating and answering numbers, and the time of day and duration. The only thing they cannot keep is a recording of the call itself.
Do you really think an FFL is going to hire attorneys and fight about it on your behalf?
Banks will cough up your data almost for the asking.
The same with the phone company. The new digital switches keep a record of EVERY CALL MADE. Both originating and answering numbers, and the time of day and duration. The only thing they cannot keep is a recording of the call itself.
This is a specific request pertaining to a single criminal. I think some are getting a little paranoid here. Would some of you be as upset if they were asking local ATV dealers who they has sold a specific make of make of dirt bike to in 2004-2005 because it was that make was identified in a murder at that time?
"Quote:
The saying "Once they get their foot in the door" comes to mind.
Yeah, they could ask other questions!
Wait, isn't that part of the whole investigatory process, asking questions?"
I was referring to the government (or anyone for that matter), along down the line. Look at the posting of peoples name and addresses in the paper who hold CCW's. I guess you don't really know what I meant. No need to be a wise a$% about it, if you misunderstood. Maybe I should have followed up, elaborated on the saying....
This could open a whole new way of gun control and ban. Lets just say a new stricter gun ban is instituted. The government now wants to know who purchased selected firearms that THEY DEEM "evil", "black rifles", "assault", "military looking", "deadly" (or whatever term they label them) between certain picked years to suit them. Now they want all these firearms to be given up voluntarily, if not they will go to your house and remove them for you ...and possibly arrest or fine you.
That's what I meant about "Once they get their foot in the door" pertaining to this topic.
I have to agree with brickeyee, I don't think there is any protection on business transactions dealing with firearms. So it is pretty much fair game for the government and cops.
This topic is a tough one and imo no one can really sit on one side or the other. Is there a middle? I don't know.
One...ya it may be a good thing to find a killer. By finding which FFL sold the firearm to the killer or the person the firearm was stolen from?
Two...ya it may be good for the gov to use it towards getting our firearms.
Both sound like potential possibilities.
The saying "Once they get their foot in the door" comes to mind.
Yeah, they could ask other questions!
Wait, isn't that part of the whole investigatory process, asking questions?"
I was referring to the government (or anyone for that matter), along down the line. Look at the posting of peoples name and addresses in the paper who hold CCW's. I guess you don't really know what I meant. No need to be a wise a$% about it, if you misunderstood. Maybe I should have followed up, elaborated on the saying....
This could open a whole new way of gun control and ban. Lets just say a new stricter gun ban is instituted. The government now wants to know who purchased selected firearms that THEY DEEM "evil", "black rifles", "assault", "military looking", "deadly" (or whatever term they label them) between certain picked years to suit them. Now they want all these firearms to be given up voluntarily, if not they will go to your house and remove them for you ...and possibly arrest or fine you.
That's what I meant about "Once they get their foot in the door" pertaining to this topic.
I have to agree with brickeyee, I don't think there is any protection on business transactions dealing with firearms. So it is pretty much fair game for the government and cops.
This topic is a tough one and imo no one can really sit on one side or the other. Is there a middle? I don't know.
One...ya it may be a good thing to find a killer. By finding which FFL sold the firearm to the killer or the person the firearm was stolen from?
Two...ya it may be good for the gov to use it towards getting our firearms.
Both sound like potential possibilities.
Another possibility
Perhaps, this is just a rather elaborate fishing expedition?
After all, assume for a moment, full cooperation and they get a list of say 2,000 people (just for a number), what good would that really do them in the investigation? They don't have a suspect (if they did, they would be asking about purchases made by that individual), so they would have to comb through the list, looking for matches to a "profile" of the killer.
Then they would have to work through all the potential matches to find the "closest" match, and then, work from there to establish evidence, beyond the mere purchase of a specific model gun during a specific time frame, linking the suspect(s?) to the crimes. All this assumes the person they are looking for bought the gun through a FL dealer. If they didn't, its nothing but a waste of time and money.
Perhaps, they are hoping the publicity involved in asking gunshops about the specific gun and time frame will shake loose some information from some other source? Such as "Buck the fisherman" remembers he sold his Sigma .40 to a guy through a want ad during those years, and now decided to tell the cops about it, incase it might turn out to be of interest to them? Or Ginny the waitress remembers an ex boyfriend who had one.....etc.
Perhaps, this is just a rather elaborate fishing expedition?
After all, assume for a moment, full cooperation and they get a list of say 2,000 people (just for a number), what good would that really do them in the investigation? They don't have a suspect (if they did, they would be asking about purchases made by that individual), so they would have to comb through the list, looking for matches to a "profile" of the killer.
Then they would have to work through all the potential matches to find the "closest" match, and then, work from there to establish evidence, beyond the mere purchase of a specific model gun during a specific time frame, linking the suspect(s?) to the crimes. All this assumes the person they are looking for bought the gun through a FL dealer. If they didn't, its nothing but a waste of time and money.
Perhaps, they are hoping the publicity involved in asking gunshops about the specific gun and time frame will shake loose some information from some other source? Such as "Buck the fisherman" remembers he sold his Sigma .40 to a guy through a want ad during those years, and now decided to tell the cops about it, incase it might turn out to be of interest to them? Or Ginny the waitress remembers an ex boyfriend who had one.....etc.
The development and solidification of suspects involves a process I like to call 'triangulation' for lack of a better term. It is influenced by any number of factors and is as useful for the exoneration of the innocent as it is in identifying the guilty. It is not something that can be 'guessed at'. The people working this case may have 20 potential suspects, 3 living in the general area of the crime and 12 others known to frequent it. 4 of those may have proclivities for the particular type of victim. Finding that one or two of them possessed a gun of the type used in the crime, simply expedites that process.
While we don't know how the 'Sigma' factor came into play but I'll take a SWAG at it. Good crime labs keep standards of fired casings and bullets from the myriad of guns and ammunition they test. In addition to unique identifiers, those standards also display general characteristics consistent with they type of firearm they were fired from. Fired casings and recovered slugs will display those general characteristics. When a potential suspect gun(s) of that type is located, more lab work will follow in the quest for unique identifiers.
I know some of you don't like or trust the police. I can dig it. I know some of you have acquired those feelings from contacts with some of our less than wonderful examples. Sorry about that. I can assure you however that we have neither the time nor inclination to sift through bales 4473's, fishing for somebody to screw with.
I also realize that I may not convince you of this. I can't help that. Now if you'll excuse me I have to go change the oil in my black helicopter and take some windex to them x-ray glasses I can see through walls with. It was about time for my midnight donut, anyway
PS- Just caught your post, 44AMP. Good point. The 'shaking loose of information' is a wonderful thing and could well be a factor in solving this crime.
While we don't know how the 'Sigma' factor came into play but I'll take a SWAG at it. Good crime labs keep standards of fired casings and bullets from the myriad of guns and ammunition they test. In addition to unique identifiers, those standards also display general characteristics consistent with they type of firearm they were fired from. Fired casings and recovered slugs will display those general characteristics. When a potential suspect gun(s) of that type is located, more lab work will follow in the quest for unique identifiers.
I know some of you don't like or trust the police. I can dig it. I know some of you have acquired those feelings from contacts with some of our less than wonderful examples. Sorry about that. I can assure you however that we have neither the time nor inclination to sift through bales 4473's, fishing for somebody to screw with.
I also realize that I may not convince you of this. I can't help that. Now if you'll excuse me I have to go change the oil in my black helicopter and take some windex to them x-ray glasses I can see through walls with. It was about time for my midnight donut, anyway
PS- Just caught your post, 44AMP. Good point. The 'shaking loose of information' is a wonderful thing and could well be a factor in solving this crime.
Hello Fella's
I believe this to be an investigation of the "DAYTONA SERIAL KILLER" I remember when they released the profile. I fit it perfectly...lol. This also reminded me of a little investigation in NY. The "SON OF SAM" also focused on a manufacture, and caliber of a firearm. In that case it was a Charter Arms Bulldog .44spl. The assigned detectives did review gun registrations within the city, and every registered bulldog 44 was test fired for comparison. In that aspect of the investigation eventually branched out to the counties, state, and reagion.
A forensic examination can determine the manufacture of a firearm used in a crime ballistically. This isnt new technology. Handguns, rifles, and shotguns can be identified without a whole lot of trouble.
If the crimes began in lets say 2004, it would make no sense to look for a gun sold after that date. How far they look behind that date would probably be an educated guess based on profile information.
IMO this isnt some plot to gather information on gun owners. It's just good, reasonable detective work. I'd assist the police i finding this fiend, and bring him to Justice.
I believe this to be an investigation of the "DAYTONA SERIAL KILLER" I remember when they released the profile. I fit it perfectly...lol. This also reminded me of a little investigation in NY. The "SON OF SAM" also focused on a manufacture, and caliber of a firearm. In that case it was a Charter Arms Bulldog .44spl. The assigned detectives did review gun registrations within the city, and every registered bulldog 44 was test fired for comparison. In that aspect of the investigation eventually branched out to the counties, state, and reagion.
A forensic examination can determine the manufacture of a firearm used in a crime ballistically. This isnt new technology. Handguns, rifles, and shotguns can be identified without a whole lot of trouble.
If the crimes began in lets say 2004, it would make no sense to look for a gun sold after that date. How far they look behind that date would probably be an educated guess based on profile information.
IMO this isnt some plot to gather information on gun owners. It's just good, reasonable detective work. I'd assist the police i finding this fiend, and bring him to Justice.
Double Naught Spy
New member
You didn't elaborate and so your vaguely referenced statement sounded overly paranoid. Your explanation certainly follows in this vein, though it is in a different direction than I expected. You seemed to be intimating 4th amendment issues with your very vague response and it turns out to be 2nd amendment.
Your explanation comes off as sounding overly paranoid because you go from the police asking for voluntary responses on gun information to saying to could lead to a new form of gun control with absolutely no realistic explanation of how this would occur. Your emotionally charged description of events isn't anything that doesn't already exist and hasn't already gone on in the past.
Absolutely. Elaborate fishing isn't illegal in anyway. As noted previously, it can all be part of a triangulation process. They have one corner of the "triangle" so far, or they think they do. They probably have a lot of other information that may or may not fit anything, but they won't know until finding patterns, sequences, commonalities that might lead to additional information (that they may or may not already have). Connecting the dots is hardest if you don't have all the dots. Even if you do, you still have to figure out which ones to connect, not connect, and in what order.