Florida deer ... the dog sized ones..

This thread reminds me of the tiny deer that inhabit the hills east of the Napa valley in Cali. Normal height at the shoulder was 2 feet. I have no idea what kind of deer they were.
For reference, I was at Lake Berryessa, opposing the dam.
Cute little buggers.
 
Google, Bergmann's rule. That should answer your question. Even deer within the same subspecies grow larger in northern areas of their range than they do in southern areas.
 
West of the Pecos and south of US Hwy 90, it's a rare desert mule deer that will dress out above 200 pounds. "Biggies" tend toward 150 to 175. As far as antler growth and rut, I have one picture of two nice bucks with full antlers in place: Easy date to remember; April 15th. I've seen bucks in full velvet at Labor Day, not yet doing any rubbing.

I mentioned carrying capacity, earlier. When I first moved back to the old family ranch outside of Austin in 1967, I went spotlighting around the pasture one night. I counted over fifty pairs of eyes in one pasture. Way too many deer for the carrying capacity of the habitat. Small, runty things. Mature spikes, scraggle-horn bucks. I went on a serious culling campaign that Parks & Wildlife would have jailed me for. After some three to four years, the average body weight was up by some 30%, and the bucks had decent racks.

Almost ten years later, the Parks & Wildlife folks were proud to announce the success of their management program at Kerrville, controlling deer numbers for the carrying capacity of the habitat.

Q: What made me so smart? A: Paddling along behind my grandfather as a kid, listening to what he had to say about how many animals that the land could support. :D
 
deanadell:

Thanks a ton for the great posts. That kind of effort from its membership is what TFL great! Oh, and thanks for responding with the Mulie info.
 
When you double the surface you triple the volume of anything. Which is why animals get bigger the farther from the equator i.e. heat retention. It is also why one cell organisms can't get as big as the blob (can't absorb enough to support the big body)
 
cornbush, bradf and aquarius nailed it,

In most mammals, nature selects for larger individuals in cold climates, and smaller individuals in warmer climates. It's all about retaining heat where it's cold or shedding heat where it's hot.

-nosualc
 
aquarius323@embarqma said:
....When you double the surface you triple the volume of anything. Which is why animals get bigger the farther from the equator i.e. heat retention. It is also why one cell organisms can't get as big as the blob (can't absorb enough to support the big body)
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nosualc said:
...In most mammals, nature selects for larger individuals in cold climates, and smaller individuals in warmer climates. It's all about retaining heat where it's cold or shedding heat where it's hot.
Click to expand...

How do you explain the size of African Plains animals such as Elephants, Rhino, Hippo, Kudu, Eland, Cape Buffalo, Water Buffalo, big cats, etc?
 
This thread is kinda funny. The OP wanted to know why Florida deer were smaller and wanted some pics....

Now we have Darwin theorists proclaiming to have the be all end all size equation after scientific data posted by Deanadell and my self show that it merely subspecies, nutrition and habitat that make them smaller.

BIOLOGY OF DEER IN FLORIDA
There are four subspecies of white-tailed deer in Florida: The Florida coastal white-tailed deer (Odocoileus virginianus osceola) in the panhandle, the Florida white-tailed deer (O. v. seminolus) in peninsular Florida, the Virginia white-tailed deer (O. v. virginianus) in the extreme northeast and the endangered Florida Key deer (O. v. clavium) in the Florida Keys. Variations in size and antler characteristics of deer in Florida are governed largely by factors of soil fertility, vegetation, climate, topography, geographic location, and genetics (Harlow and Jones 1965, Harlow 1972, Shea et al. 1992a, Vanderhoof 1992, McCown et al. 1995). The effects of these factors are reflected in the physical differences in deer of the same sex and age from separate locations in Florida (Harlow and Jones 1965).
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Morphology
Adult male white-tailed deer in Florida weigh on average 125 pounds and stand approximately 36 inches tall at the shoulder. Female deer are smaller, averaging about 95 pounds and 32 inches in height. Deer in Florida are considerably smaller than those in most other states. There is also substantial variation in body size among deer within Florida. The largest animals occur in the Panhandle and the smallest in southern Florida.
Antler characteristics of deer also differ, depending on age, nutrition and genetics. Nutrition plays an important role in antler development, particularly the amount of protein, calcium, phosphorus, and magnesium in the forage. Different habitats provide different amounts of nutrients; therefore, habitat type and quality can influence antler characteristics. Deer in central Florida sand pine-scrub oak and flatwoods communities had the smallest beam diameter and highest percentage of spikes in yearling bucks (Harlow and Jones 1965). In northwest Florida flatwoods, poor antler development of yearling bucks also appears to be related to the late fawning period (Shea et al. 1992a).
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What is really interesting is the harvest data:

5 year average harvest for MS, AL and GA being close to 400,000 while Florida was only 100,000
 
Harvest data is no surprise... Few hunters overall per capita, and of those, many travel to the states mentioned with higher numbers to hunt bigger animals in cooler temps. Florida has really suffered a big hit in hunter numbers with the encroachment of urban life and those that seek it. It also has put a big pinch in the amount of hunting acreage over the last 25-30 years...
Brent
 
Florida has really suffered a big hit in hunter numbers with the encroachment of urban life and those that seek it.
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That and IMHO, the mismanagement of the WMAs. Unlimited tags for deer with no effort to supplement or or improve the herd size or health.

I used to hunt with a very responsible group in the Bull Creek WMA, but they all got run off after I left by miscreants creating havoc a couple seasons in a row. Who wants to go out there if your vehicle gets shot up, all of your tree stands get stolen, or your archery-shot deer gets stolen before you can trail it! And that was walking to the SE corner of the WMA, approx 45 mins!

But back to topic, to add to what's already been said, the FL deer in the central-southern region are smaller than their northern cousins. I've hunted deer in FL, Northern AL, NJ (my best archery hunting experience by far), WA State, TX, and OK. WA was the biggest. NJ the most plentiful. TX the most fun (the people are so nice). And AL was just cold. Cold and wet...:)
 
I feel so sorry for you guys... I am from an area the produces HUGE deer with big racks. I would imagine that the fawns from that spring that some of the local yokels shoot are as big as your Texas and Florida deer. Mule deer bucks with 6 points a side are not terribly uncommon and boy do they get big bodies on them... my .270 does the trick, first time every time.
 
Just a note on Deanadell's post about Mule deer. There is some controversy as to whether the Columbian Blacktail deer (Odocoileus hemionus columbianus) is a sub-species of the Mule deer (Odocoileus hemionus hemionus). Some people argue that the Black Tail is a species in its own right and even that it is the ancestor (Clade?) of the Mule deer.

They are a relatively small species with an average weight of about #140 and the record in the low 180 range. In their case habitat (dense rain forest) trumps latitude.
 
In a nutshell,the hotter the climate,the smaller the body of the white tail. Texas has some huge racked bucks,but not a large body weight,for example. La Rue's book on white tails is a good source of information.:)
 
Key deer are found on, strangely enough, Deer Key in the Florida keys. They are protected, but if you ever drive down there, they wander out in the road (because people feed them) and often get killed. They may reach 3' high, but that would be a big one.
Other than that, the white tail deer found in Florida seem full size to me.
 
Strangely enuff, I have seen key deer on only 2 islands and deer key ain't one of them... Big Pine and No Name key are the 2 where the key deer is commonly seen. As for our white tails... they may not be huge but plenty of meat to be had for sure!
The key deer refuge is the 2 islands listed above...
Brent
 
Like everything else in FL, if you're not slim, trim and sexy you are nothing. A big fat un-tanned deer in FL sticks out like a sore thumb, and know it wouldn't be a FL deer, would me it was a Yankee deer! That said it wouldn't stand a chance with the guys I know that hunt down there, so, there you have it, the reason there are no big deer in FL.:D
(By the way, I was a floridian, now transplanted to SC so don't think I was being mean pls.):D
 
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