Florida deer ... the dog sized ones..

banditt007

New member
I'm from the north east and i keep hearing about these really small deer in florida (possibly some surrounding states?) anyway these are white tail deer correct? whats the reason for their size... i would have thought..like the fresh water fish..since the climate is so mild they would grow the biggest and not have a severe lack of food come winter. whats considered an average size? b/c i hear people speak of them as if they are dog sized!??? if anyone has any pictures to share that would be great.
 
I think they are Key deer and I saw one on the road while driving through the Keys- I thought it was a fawn, but it was an adult. I think they are a protected species.

As far as their size, I noticed that the Key limes were tiny too, compared to regular limes. Maybe everything is smaller there to evade the crocs?
 
Yep, our deer are small and it is because of a number of factors mostly heat, water and food are not a problem in most areas. Key Deer are a sub-species and not worth going after. Ate a road kill many years ago good for stew meat maybe.

On the other hand my 'biggie' was a 6 point with heavy beams that came out of Big Cypress. We don't have a lot of time to fool around down here, the general consensus was that it was about 180#s. Pretty big for here.
 
Here in NE Fl the average mature buck will run around 120-140 pounds. We do get a fine one pushing 200 every now and again, usually from private land with enhansments.

The closer you get to the coast, and especially on the barrier islands like Sapalo, Ossabaw and Cumberland off of SE GA, they will be smaller. From what I understand they are smaller simply because it's not necessary biologically for them to be bigger.

We do not have winter die offs and even when we have sever drought there is plenty of water for them. On top of that if you look at a soil survery, at least here in NE FL you will notice that there is a lot of land that rates marginal at best as far as the quality of the food produced for the deer.

There is plenty of it in most places it's just not the best quality stuff.

Finally there is the issue of fat. What you will find is that of a 120 pound deer there will be almost ZERO fat. Unless of course someone has been corning them........ You might find that if you subtract the FAT component of your larger deer and focus on only meat yeild that the disparity, while still evident and real, may not be as great as you think.
 
bswiv said:
....Here in NE Fl the average mature buck will run around 120-140 pounds. We do get a fine one pushing 200 every now and again............. You might find that if you subtract the FAT component of your larger deer and focus on only meat yeild that the disparity, while still evident and real, may not be as great as you think.

If that theory were true then Northern deer would be packing 150 lbs of fat. Fruit and crops may be larger in the south due to climate but in wildlife it's the exact opposite. The further north you go the larger the species. Years of harsh weather has left only the fittest of the gene pool to survive. We frequently see bucks that will run 300-350 lbs and nearing 400 lbs, it's not half fat.

Moose is a prime example of species getting larger the further north you go. In North America the Shiras is the smallest (800-1000 lbs), Canadian gets bigger, and the Alaskan/Yukon (1500 lbs) is the giant of the species. This phenomena holds true with all species.
 
Don't think I suggested anything so crazy as "150 pounds" of fat. Deer here are smaller but you WILL find that the meat to fat ratio is much higher with our skinny animals than with a grain fed specimen from further north. It is not at all unusual, actually more the norm, to find that there is ZERO fat on deer from our WMAs that do not get corn or the like.

What you'll find in general is that our deer are 1/3 smaller than deer from colder climates with better food.

With all that said, one need only travel a few hours north and west, that would be west-central Georgia, to find lots of 200 pound plus specimens.

Seems that the real concentrations of small deer is in the coastal plain and in almost all of the Florida peninsula.
 
Part of the reason for smaller body size is heat. It is harder to cool a big body than a small one. They have evolved that way over time because in that habitat and climate it is what works. Here in Utah we get deer that tip the scales over 300 pounds sometimes, the massive bodies are to keep more heat in during the winter months, the fat reserves help supplament their diet too.
 
It is true that whitetails in FL are smaller than those up north. We're aren't going to see 300-350# bucks ever, but neither most states. I have seen and shot many bucks in FL that will rival most of the mature bucks in GA, AL, MS, & TX when it comes to body size. But body size is not the real issue for most of us, our problem is that even on land that is managed for trophy bucks most of the big ones are going to be in the 120-130 class. There are exceptions to this but in general we don't have the big racks. Dog sized deer in WMA's don't count because you can't get into the places where the big ones live and every redneck for five counties is in there killing every legal deer they see.
 
Dog sized is what you will commonly see in parts of the Texas Hill county....and I mean dog sized. Where I live and hunt them, they average 100 and up. Doe at 90-100 lbs can be 3 years old. It is not all of them. I think that around where I live it is dependent on the season. Three years ago, when we had a wet year and food was abundant, they were huge for Hill Country deer.






These were a couple of pretty big boys were I live.
Ken
 
I am a huge believer in the "Gene Theory". Where I hunt in north FL (Madison) we have two very distinctly different deer, all on the same property that I hunt. The average buck will be from 110 to 135ish. We call these swamp deer. They are light in color. Then we have these other deer that are very dark in color, will have black down their backs and some on their legs. I have killed several in the 200 to 237 (Weighed)class. For as long as I can remember the old timers say they had mule deer in them. I know that is not the case but they are as different as a mule deer and a white tail looking at them side by side. One of the old timers told me that these deer come from around the river. May be some truth to that. If you have ever seen a north FL river, they have some steep banks of limestone. More minerals?
 
All I kill are dog sized ones....

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This is my first deer this year. That is the back of my jeep........Very small button buck

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This is a 7pt I arrowed last year. First ever bow buck

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This is a Spike I shot late last year.

As you can see they are all pretty small. Mind you, I am 6' 225lbs....
 
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Realizing there's no One size fits all in this, but generalizing: As you go north in the U.S., animals of various species tend to be larger in size. Maine whitetails are a heckuva lot larger, on average, than southern whitetails, on average. Same for black bear and mule deer. Same for coyotes.

Some sub-species of whitetail deer are just genertically smaller: The Key deer of Florida, the Del Carmen whitetail of the Texas Big Bend, and the Coues of Arizona.

Over the last forty-five years, the average size of the whitetail deer in central Texas has declined due to over-loading of the habitat's food supply. A population larger than the carrying capacity of the land. (Ranches turned into ranchettes, owned by non- and anti-hunters, as a large part of the problem.)
 
One unique thing about Texas is the dog sized deer in the Central Texas hill country, and the much larger South Texas whitetails about 150 miles south.
It certainly isn't the heat.
 
http://www.kerrlake.com/deer/white.htm



Sub-Species:

Taxonomy is the classification of living things.I want go into the complex description of Taxonomy but I will discribe the Virginia Whitetail (Odocoileus Virginanus) , it's sub-species and where they range.

1. The Virginia whitetail, Odocoileus virginianus virginianus, is the prototype of all whitetail deer. Its range includes Virginia, West Virginia, Kentucky, Tennessee, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, and Mississippi. This is a moderately large deer with fairly heavy antlers. It is hunted in all of the states it inhabits, and each state has a good deer population. It has a widely diversified habitat, varying from coastal marshes, swamplands, and pinelands to the "balds" atop the Great Smokey Mountains.

2. The northern woodland whitetail,Odocoileus virginianus borealis, is the largest and generally the darkest in coloration. It also has the largest range, being found in Maryland, Delaware, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan, New York, Connecticut, Rhode Island, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Vermont, Maine, and the Canadian provinces of New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, Quebec, Ontario, and a portion,of Manitoba. More whitetails of this subspecies are hunted than any other. Some 541,000 deer were legally taken from the region of the borealis subspecies in 1974. This area has also produced half a dozen of the top twenty record whitetail heads listed in the Boone and Crockett Club's official records book, North American Big Game. Including the long standing record harvested by Jim Jordan in Wisconsin.

3. The Dakota whitetail,Odocoileus virginianus docotensis, is another very large deer, about equaling the northern whitetail in weight . This subspecies has produced even more of the high-ranking trophy heads than the borealis race. The range covers North Dakota, South Dakota, and parts of Nebraska, Kansas, Wyoming, Montana, @ and the Canadian provinces of Manitoba, Saskatchewan, and Alberta. Dakota bucks have heavy, fairly widespread antlers. The winter coat is a little paler than that of borealis. This is a deer of the breaks. Its home is in the timbered coulees, gullies, draws, and river and stream bottoms that cut through the prairies.

4. The Northwest whitetail, Odocoileus virginianus ochrourus, is also a large deer. It inhabits parts of Montana, Idaho, Washington, Oregon, California, Nevada, Utah, and the Canadian provinces of British Columbia and Alberta. The biggest whitetail I ever saw was in Glacier National Park. It could have been either this subspecies or a Dakota. The two races intergrade in that area. This subspecies has very widespread antlers and a winter coat of relatively pale cinnamon-brown.

5. The range of the Columbian whitetail,Odocoileus virginianus leucurus, has been so greatly reduced that most of these deer are now found only on th 'e Federal Columbian White-tailed Deer Refuge, on the Columbian River near Cathiamet, Washington. The subspecies formerly ranged along the Pacific coast in Washington and Oregon, spreading eastward to intergrade with the Northwest whitetail. The Columbian whitetail is not hunted as it is now on the endangered-animal list.

6. The Coues, or Arizona whitetail, Odocoileus virginianus couesi, is a small variety. At one time it was thought to be a distinct species but more recent research has relegated it to the status of subspecies. It has larger ears and tail in relation to its body size than most whitetails, This deer is found in the dry, desert regions of southeastern California, southern Arizona, southwestern New Mexico, and on down into Old Mexico. The Coues is apparently isolated from areas where it could intergrade with the Texas whitetail but in the southern part of its range it probably intergrades with several Mexican subspecies. Even in Arizona the Coues whitetails are more or less isolated in the mountainous areas that rise above the desert, such as the Chiricahua and Huachuca Mountains. Arizona estimates it has about 25,000 Coues deer but does not give any harvest figures. New Mexico has a hunting season for this deer but gives neither a population estimate nor the hunter's take. The Coues deer has its own classification in the Boone and Crockett Club, dating back to when it was considered a distinct species. From the hunter's point of view, the separate classification remains legitimate since the little Coues deer has a light "rack," or antlers. A trophy that is outstanding by Coues standards could hardly compete with a trophy northern or Dakota whitetail.

7. The Texas whitetail, Odocoileus virginianus texanus, is found in western Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, southeastern Colorado, eastern New Mexico, and the northern portion of Old Mexico. Everything about Texas is big, even its population of whitetail deer. Texas has four whitetail subspecies, of which the most abundant is the Texas whitetail. Its body is much smaller than that of the more northerly deer but it is the largest of the southern forms. The antlers are slender but widespread and there are several record heads among the top twenty-five.

8. The Carmen Mountains whitetail, Odocoileus virginianus corminis, is a small deer found in the Big Bend region of Texas. Its range is limited to the Carmen Mountains on both sides of the Rio Grande. Not many of these deer are hunted because most of their range falls within the boundaries of Big Bend National Park, where hunting is prohibited. Here is a good example of isolation. A buffer strip of semi-desert, inhabited by mule deer, separates this subspecies from the Texas whitetail and prevents intergrading.

9.The range of the Avery Island whitetail,Odocoileus virginianus mcilhennyi, stretches along the Gulf Coast in Texas and Louisiana. This is the deer of the Texas Big Thicket Country. It is a large one with a dark, brownish winter coat, and it intergrades with the whitetail subspecies found to the west, north and east.

10. The Kansas whitetail,Odocoileus virginianus macrourus, is the fourth subspecies occurring in Texas. Found in eastern Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, Nebraska, Iowa, Missouri, Arkansas, and Louisiana, it is a large deer with heavy main antler beams and short tines. Several deer of this type are listed among the top 25 heads.

11. The Bull's Island whitetail,Odocoileus virginianus tourinsulae, is an isolated and very limited race of whitetail deer, found only on Bull's Island, South Carolina.

12. The Hunting Island whitetail,Odocoileus virginianus venotorius, is another of South Carolina's minor variations, found only on Hunting Island.

13. The Hilton Head Island whitetail,Odocoileus virginianus hiltonensis, is still another South Carolinian variation, limited to Hilton Head Island.

14. The Blackbeard Island whitetail,Odocoileus virginianus nigribarbis, is found only on the Georgian Islands of Blackbeard and Sapelo' All of those last four subspecies are medium-sized deer with fairly small antlers that are heavily ridged or wrinkled at the base. The islands they inhabit are far enough out in the ocean to prevent intergrading with mainland subspecies or with one another. I believe that hunting is currently allowed on all of these islands.

15. The Florida whitetail,Odocoileus virginianus seminolus, is a good-sized deer with a good rack. Some have antlers as impressive as the borealis though the spread is not as wide. The race is the deer of the Everglades.

16. The Florida coastal whitetail,Odocoileus virginianus osceola, is found in the Florida panhandle, southern Alabama, and Mississippi. It is not as large as the Florida or the Virginia whitetail but it intergrades with both.

17. The Florida Key deer, Odocoileus virginianus clovium, is the smallest of our native deer. No hunting is allowed for this subspecies, which is on the endangered-animal list. By 1949, the Key deer population had plummeted to an all-time low of thirty individuals. This reduction was brought about mainly by habitat destruction, fires, hurricanes, automobile kills, and hunting. The Key Deer National Wildlife Refuge was established in 1953. With the protection thus provided, the deer population has crept back up to about three hundred. Today the automobile is the number-one killer, as the highway linking the Florida Keys passes through the center of the range.
 
deanadell should get some king of forum award for going through the effort to post such a through answer to the question!

I may be making a assumption here but if you're a bilogist can you give us some idea of what effect the available habitat, soil qualities and the like may have on the different species?

One of the maps I've got of the areas we hunt has a soils survey attached. What is striking is that none of it rates better than fair for deer.
 
Mulies......

http://www.fs.fed.us/database/feis/animals/mammal/odhe/all.html

More technical than the info found for the whitetails.....

Mule deer subspecies and ranges
Common name (scientific name)
Range


Rocky Mountain mule deer
Southwestern Saskatchewan west through southern Alberta and British
(Odocoileus hemionus hemionus)
Columbia, extending south throughout WA, OR, ND, SD, KS, NE, MT, WY, CO,
UT, and ID, and into northeast CA, sections of NV, AZ, NM, TX, OK, and northern
Mexico


Desert mule deer (O. h. crooki)
Semi-arid areas of CA, NV, AZ, NM, TX, and northern Mexico.
California mule deer
Ranging throughout CA, but particularly common in High Sierra
(O. h. californicus)


Southern mule deer (O. h. fuliginatus)
Ranging from northern Baja CA into southwestern CA.
Black-tailed deer (Columbian)
Wet-forest coastal areas of WA, OR, and southern British Columbia, and relative-
(O. h. colubianus)
ly common throughout CA


Black-tailed deer (Sitka)
Southeast AK, Yukon, and the north coast of British Columbia
(O. h. sitkensis)


Reproduction
Mule deer breeding season (commonly referred to as the rut) varies considerably from region to region.
The rut typically begins in the fall and extends through mid-winter, peaking in December or January. Antler growth begins as soon as the old antlers have been shed (late January through early March), with full development completed by the end of August. With their antlers fully developed in the fall, males of reproductive age begin to form competitive dominance
hierarchies for access to reproductive females. Once accepted by a female in estrus, a dominant buck will tend the doe until mating is completed or the buck is displaced by another male. Mule deer bucks are serially polygynous, that is, they will mate with any female willing to accept them.
Male dominance is largely a function of both body size and correlated antler size, with the largest males performing the majority of mating. Mule deer does remain
in estrus for about 24 hours and continue to cycle
approximately every 28 days if they do not mate successfully. Mule deer, both male and female, generally
do not reach sexual maturity until approximately
1.5 years of age. Does rarely breed during their first year and average less than one fawn per doe during their second fawning season, becoming more productive
at 3 years or older. Does will frequently produce twins when habitat conditions are favorable. The majority
of reproductive-age females breed in any given year, although reproductive success is highly dependent
on habitat conditions. 2
 
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