FireForged
New member
As said earlier and I agree wholeheartedly... "there is no good way to go looking for someone".
Flashlights and Handguns for Home Defense
- Thread starter TheRoadWarrior
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Stevie-Ray
New member
Guys, I keep a flashlight next to my nightstand gun. And it doesn't have to be expensive either. This is what I use: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00112HSE2...iveASIN=B00112HSE2&adid=1W4Q5RFZK6ZAEH0XVECN&
Bright, handy, and very inexpensive. Had mine for about a year. 28 bucks for it at Meijer, as you can see even cheaper from Amazon. Never really wanted to attach one to my gun, as it's my EDC.
Bright, handy, and very inexpensive. Had mine for about a year. 28 bucks for it at Meijer, as you can see even cheaper from Amazon. Never really wanted to attach one to my gun, as it's my EDC.
I have read several threads on tactical flashlights, going back 6 years. Most people saw them as a normal light source, they are much more.
If a BG gets in my house, my 5 pound Yorkie will let me know. That will also let the BG know I'm home, and where I'm located.
I have no intention of going out to "clear" the house. I stay in the bedroom with my wife and dog. The BG can take anything he wants and leave. I will try to convince hi to leave: "I have a gun" "The police are on the way"
He is not an actual threat untill he tries to come in the bedroom. Texas Stand Your Ground says I can use deadly force to protect my property, but I have no property worth a human life.
I keep my gun and two flashlights handy. After getting the wife and dog safely in the bathroom, I get behind the bed with the gun and both flashlights. I have a cheap normal penlight to identify anyone coming in if I can't see good enough. The 500 lumen tactical light is actually part of my arsenal. I know from experience what it can do. It's like a professional strength flash bulb right in front of your face.
If it's strobed quickly in someones face (from the head of the bed, then I move to the foot of the bed), they will not instantly fire at it. The brain will require some time to process "What was that" "Where did that come from". It may only take a second, or it may take 3-5 seconds. That time is the advantage I want. Also, the BG is disoriented and confused.
A small possibility is the BG will become so confused he will bolt and run. So much the better.
Don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying the tactical is a powerful weapon in itself. But it's a valuable addition to the tools I have available.
If a BG gets in my house, my 5 pound Yorkie will let me know. That will also let the BG know I'm home, and where I'm located.
I have no intention of going out to "clear" the house. I stay in the bedroom with my wife and dog. The BG can take anything he wants and leave. I will try to convince hi to leave: "I have a gun" "The police are on the way"
He is not an actual threat untill he tries to come in the bedroom. Texas Stand Your Ground says I can use deadly force to protect my property, but I have no property worth a human life.
I keep my gun and two flashlights handy. After getting the wife and dog safely in the bathroom, I get behind the bed with the gun and both flashlights. I have a cheap normal penlight to identify anyone coming in if I can't see good enough. The 500 lumen tactical light is actually part of my arsenal. I know from experience what it can do. It's like a professional strength flash bulb right in front of your face.
If it's strobed quickly in someones face (from the head of the bed, then I move to the foot of the bed), they will not instantly fire at it. The brain will require some time to process "What was that" "Where did that come from". It may only take a second, or it may take 3-5 seconds. That time is the advantage I want. Also, the BG is disoriented and confused.
A small possibility is the BG will become so confused he will bolt and run. So much the better.
Don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying the tactical is a powerful weapon in itself. But it's a valuable addition to the tools I have available.
I'll do my own searches if need be. I live out of town, if there is a Sheriff's Deputy close by then I figure at best the response time would be 30 minutes. If one isn't close by, then there is no telling how long it will take.
I'll do my own. It's not like I haven't done a building search. In my LE days I've done hundreds in not thousands, most alone. I've taught other cops building searches.
Don't agree, thats fine.
As to flash lights, no way in heck am I going to mount one on my pistol/revolver. Guess where your eye is if someone decides to take a pot shot at your light.
I carried a flash light, but always held it away from my body, I'd rather get my hand shot then my eyeball.
I also don't like super bright flash lights, I found they reflect off way too many objects screwing with your night vision. I like the standard old flashlights that you pay a couple bucks for at the box store. You don't need to read the newspaper with your light, you just have to see the bandit.
In fact in SE Asia I used the old L shaped light w/red lens (and mostly dieing batteries) searching little dark muddy tunnels. I saw all I needed to see.
This brings up something else I have mentioned more then once. LEARN TO SHOOT WITH ONE HAND. Extend your flashlight with one hand, and shoot with one hand. Learn to shoot one handed with either hand. If your right handed and peek around a corner on your left side, you're going to expose more of your body if you want to use your right hand. Same with the right side if you're left handed.
Simple enough to check. Get your partner to stand in front of a barricade. Get down on the right side of the barricade and point your finger. Try it with both hands, try it with two hands. Ask you partner which method exposed the most part of your body.
Use mirrors to peek around corners. Go low. Don't stand up and peek, get down. People (bandits included) expect people to stand up and peek around corners or doors, and are looking at head level. Get as low as you can, its not expected.
I know many, if not most will agree with me, but this is based on my experience and my set up.
I'll do my own. It's not like I haven't done a building search. In my LE days I've done hundreds in not thousands, most alone. I've taught other cops building searches.
Don't agree, thats fine.
As to flash lights, no way in heck am I going to mount one on my pistol/revolver. Guess where your eye is if someone decides to take a pot shot at your light.
I carried a flash light, but always held it away from my body, I'd rather get my hand shot then my eyeball.
I also don't like super bright flash lights, I found they reflect off way too many objects screwing with your night vision. I like the standard old flashlights that you pay a couple bucks for at the box store. You don't need to read the newspaper with your light, you just have to see the bandit.
In fact in SE Asia I used the old L shaped light w/red lens (and mostly dieing batteries) searching little dark muddy tunnels. I saw all I needed to see.
This brings up something else I have mentioned more then once. LEARN TO SHOOT WITH ONE HAND. Extend your flashlight with one hand, and shoot with one hand. Learn to shoot one handed with either hand. If your right handed and peek around a corner on your left side, you're going to expose more of your body if you want to use your right hand. Same with the right side if you're left handed.
Simple enough to check. Get your partner to stand in front of a barricade. Get down on the right side of the barricade and point your finger. Try it with both hands, try it with two hands. Ask you partner which method exposed the most part of your body.
Use mirrors to peek around corners. Go low. Don't stand up and peek, get down. People (bandits included) expect people to stand up and peek around corners or doors, and are looking at head level. Get as low as you can, its not expected.
I know many, if not most will agree with me, but this is based on my experience and my set up.
Onward Allusion
New member
Interesting Observation
I had an opportunity to attend lectures and practice drills with our city's LEOs recently and one observation was that all the patrol officers did not have lights/lasers mounted to their pistols.
Whereas every one of the Special Operations officers (drugs/gangs unit) had at least a light if not a combo on theirs. Oh, they also carry flashlights, too. The thing is, a weapon mounted light is a tool. Who says that you can't have both and use both? It all depends on the situation. Why limit yourself?
I had an opportunity to attend lectures and practice drills with our city's LEOs recently and one observation was that all the patrol officers did not have lights/lasers mounted to their pistols.
Whereas every one of the Special Operations officers (drugs/gangs unit) had at least a light if not a combo on theirs. Oh, they also carry flashlights, too. The thing is, a weapon mounted light is a tool. Who says that you can't have both and use both? It all depends on the situation. Why limit yourself?
Onward Allusion
New member
Amen
TacticalDefense1911
New member
There are both good and bad points to using a weapon mounted light. The only problem with a handheld light is your ability to shoot one handed. If given only one choice between either a WML or a handheld I would choose the handheld. You always need a handheld light IMO.
If you do have a WML you need to practice with it. Don't just assume that it is going to work for you. Through practice I've found that I have an issue operating the momentary switch on my X300 while firing. The heavy recoil of my 45 causes my thumb to come out of contact with the switch when firing. Not a good thing while trying to keep a threat illuminated during an engagement. While the x300 is a wonderful light, I've found that it does not work for me.
If you do have a WML you need to practice with it. Don't just assume that it is going to work for you. Through practice I've found that I have an issue operating the momentary switch on my X300 while firing. The heavy recoil of my 45 causes my thumb to come out of contact with the switch when firing. Not a good thing while trying to keep a threat illuminated during an engagement. While the x300 is a wonderful light, I've found that it does not work for me.
My $.02
I have the option of using a handgun tactical light at work, and I work nights, but I choose not to have one mounted. I considered it, and find it comes down to personal preference, depending on whether one prefers a "defensive" or "offensive" handgun.
It's kind of an extension of the point-shooting/aimed-shooting debate.
I remember some years ago reading about the approval of the H&K as the SOCOM "offensive" handgun: A primary weapon in a particular tactical environment. Enhanced sights and weapon lights seem to suit this application.
I think the main threat in my environment is more likely to come from a very quick, very close point-shooting "defensive" scenario, and I think a light on the handgun just makes it slower.
Most of the other points seem to cancel each other out. One only activates the weapon light (presumably) when seeking to illuminate an actual target, and turns it off immediately after engaging (then moving, if possible).
Our training and policy have us activating the light only with the non-firing hand, so I don't gain a free hand. I still need to have the hand-held light out because chances are I will need to use it for searching, etc., that I cannot do with the weapon light.
On the plus side, your chance of identifying a target and getting an accurate shot off in the dark are vastly increased, and if you fumble your flashlight, you can still illuminate the target.
The dilemma is similar to the situation with night sights: They really do make it easier to shoot accurately at night, but are they more suited to the range than real life? Much depends on the scenario.
For a dedicated home-defense weapon, I suppose I would consider one, but for a carry weapon, I will probably stick with my decision to keep it simple.
However, I think a tac-light is desirable on a long gun.
There you go, clear as mud...whatever. Just make your choice and train with it.
I have the option of using a handgun tactical light at work, and I work nights, but I choose not to have one mounted. I considered it, and find it comes down to personal preference, depending on whether one prefers a "defensive" or "offensive" handgun.
It's kind of an extension of the point-shooting/aimed-shooting debate.
I remember some years ago reading about the approval of the H&K as the SOCOM "offensive" handgun: A primary weapon in a particular tactical environment. Enhanced sights and weapon lights seem to suit this application.
I think the main threat in my environment is more likely to come from a very quick, very close point-shooting "defensive" scenario, and I think a light on the handgun just makes it slower.
Most of the other points seem to cancel each other out. One only activates the weapon light (presumably) when seeking to illuminate an actual target, and turns it off immediately after engaging (then moving, if possible).
Our training and policy have us activating the light only with the non-firing hand, so I don't gain a free hand. I still need to have the hand-held light out because chances are I will need to use it for searching, etc., that I cannot do with the weapon light.
On the plus side, your chance of identifying a target and getting an accurate shot off in the dark are vastly increased, and if you fumble your flashlight, you can still illuminate the target.
The dilemma is similar to the situation with night sights: They really do make it easier to shoot accurately at night, but are they more suited to the range than real life? Much depends on the scenario.
For a dedicated home-defense weapon, I suppose I would consider one, but for a carry weapon, I will probably stick with my decision to keep it simple.
However, I think a tac-light is desirable on a long gun.
There you go, clear as mud...whatever. Just make your choice and train with it.
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Double Naught Spy
New member
Don't be so naive. If he is inside your house, he is a threat. An inch of dry wall isn't much protection, except maybe against a yorkie.
You might want to recheck your laws. Texas stand your ground law does not say this. That part of the law has been in place long before 2007.
Property isn't worth a human life? Try explaining that to the criminals who are willing to kill you for your property and who are willing to die while trying to take your property.
My home defense situation is different than most. My problem is varmints such as wild dogs, coyotes and the occasional mountain lion messing with my horses or goats. The signal is that my dogs raise heck and hit the door. If that occurs I know to bring a rifle and flashlight.
I will be adding a flashlight to my AR which is my primary outside response weapon.
I will be adding a flashlight to my AR which is my primary outside response weapon.
Big_Bullet
New member
Um, no!
Have you heard what happens when we assume? It sounds too much like you're assuming that someone needs to be shot at. Always be certain that you need to shoot. After you are absolutley certain, make certain again. Might sound a bit insane, but I think I may almost need to hear a shot fired before I pull my trigger. Regret is one thing I don't want to regret.
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Big_Bullet
New member
Is there absolutely no possible way, none whatsoever, that someone could be in your house for some other reason than to rob or kill you? How about, a neighbor, so disoriented by diabetes, or some other reason, that they unlocked your door with their own key (has happened), and they thought they were in their own home. Stranger things have happened. We all know this is true. Pulling the trigger is always the absolute last possible option, and even then, away from the target with the first shot is a really good idea. The sound alone could scare a genuine crook away, or at least make the disoriented, possibly innocent stranger very quickly make themselves known before it's too late. A neighbor is a terrible thing to waste.
All it took was one training session to learn that you cannot do a quick mag change with a flashlight in your left hand. As some posters said, the new lights today light up my whole living area by pointing it to the ground or ceiling. I do not have to point my gun at anyone. I have no kids so if someone is in my home they do not belong there. I also have tactical handheld lights with clips to attach to my waist.
I advise all of you that use handheld flashlights to walk through what you will do even if just to round up the family. You will find it hard to turn door knobs, hold your child's hand, turn on lights and do the many other things you will need a free hand to do. Then after all that imagaine your gun jams and do the drills you practiced to unjam it with a flash light in your hand. Of course you can waste a lot of precious time tucking that flashlight under your arm but seconds count.
I was adverse to gun mounted lights because they altered the balance point of my gun but after taking a night course I learned that you really need one hand free to do a lot of things.
P.S. I quickly learned in Vietnam, where the enemy dressed like the civilians, that you lived much longer if you did not debate whether that guy in the pajamas heading for you with his hands hidden was just a civilian that was ashamed of showing his hands or a VC. Many a civilian has had his gun taken from him and used against him becaues when the moment of truth occurs he cannot pull the trigger. He will consider all sorts of things like maybe it is my neigbor with the same key, or maybe he will just leave if I threaten to shoot or many other things. However, by the time he is absolutely certain that it is not some kid he did not know he had, coming to see his biological dad at 3am, the BG will be on him taking his gun away or plunging a knife into him. Had most of my LEO family and friends tell me that many a time a civilian was killed with his own gun by the person he was trying to stop because he could not pull the trigger. Humans are programmed not to kill each other. The military has to train you to act differently and even then I saw many a new recruit freeze up and not fire back when fired upon. So I am not going to spend much time deciding whether to shoot or not. If the person is acting like a threat he will be treated as one. This is the same thing LEO do. You cannot act like a pyschologist becasue you just do not have the time or training.
I advise all of you that use handheld flashlights to walk through what you will do even if just to round up the family. You will find it hard to turn door knobs, hold your child's hand, turn on lights and do the many other things you will need a free hand to do. Then after all that imagaine your gun jams and do the drills you practiced to unjam it with a flash light in your hand. Of course you can waste a lot of precious time tucking that flashlight under your arm but seconds count.
I was adverse to gun mounted lights because they altered the balance point of my gun but after taking a night course I learned that you really need one hand free to do a lot of things.
P.S. I quickly learned in Vietnam, where the enemy dressed like the civilians, that you lived much longer if you did not debate whether that guy in the pajamas heading for you with his hands hidden was just a civilian that was ashamed of showing his hands or a VC. Many a civilian has had his gun taken from him and used against him becaues when the moment of truth occurs he cannot pull the trigger. He will consider all sorts of things like maybe it is my neigbor with the same key, or maybe he will just leave if I threaten to shoot or many other things. However, by the time he is absolutely certain that it is not some kid he did not know he had, coming to see his biological dad at 3am, the BG will be on him taking his gun away or plunging a knife into him. Had most of my LEO family and friends tell me that many a time a civilian was killed with his own gun by the person he was trying to stop because he could not pull the trigger. Humans are programmed not to kill each other. The military has to train you to act differently and even then I saw many a new recruit freeze up and not fire back when fired upon. So I am not going to spend much time deciding whether to shoot or not. If the person is acting like a threat he will be treated as one. This is the same thing LEO do. You cannot act like a pyschologist becasue you just do not have the time or training.
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Frank Ettin
Administrator
Which is why at Gunsite we train using a lanyard on the flashlight and around our wrist.
I'll be a dummy and post a couple of my flashlights. The reason I say dummy, is that for some reason a certain segment sees flashlights as some unnecessary piece of 'tacticool' equipment. The reasons why they do elude me, or their logic, or rather lack of logic behind their reasoning, I should say.
I use a handheld, but think weapon mounted is probably the best way to go. If you can't light up a room, or outdoor area with a weapon mounted light, without covering someone, or something with the muzzle, you are inept. Just hold it at low ready, no need to sweep it around like a search light. You will be able to see just fine.
Pistol is a Kahr PM9, top knife is an Ontario Rat 1, next is a 4Sevens Quark AA2 Tactical, then my twenty year old Cold Steel Ultra-Lock, last a Fenix LD20.
The Quark has a moonlight(0.2 Lumens), low(4 Lumens), medium(22 Lumens), high (85 Lumens), Max (205 Lumens). It also has strobe, beacon and SOS. It will run 30 days on moonlight and 1.3 hours on Max. I use rechargeable AA Eneloop batteries that have 1500 charge cycles and hold up to 75% of full charge for 3 years. I charge them on average every six weeks with normal use.
As you can see, you can easily use Kraig's technique of a lower lumens, stealthier light and still deliver 205 eye searing, room illuminating lumens if you want/need too.
Having a practical/tactical flashlight as part of your EDC and knowing how best to employ it, is the only way to go, IMHO.
I use a handheld, but think weapon mounted is probably the best way to go. If you can't light up a room, or outdoor area with a weapon mounted light, without covering someone, or something with the muzzle, you are inept. Just hold it at low ready, no need to sweep it around like a search light. You will be able to see just fine.
Pistol is a Kahr PM9, top knife is an Ontario Rat 1, next is a 4Sevens Quark AA2 Tactical, then my twenty year old Cold Steel Ultra-Lock, last a Fenix LD20.
The Quark has a moonlight(0.2 Lumens), low(4 Lumens), medium(22 Lumens), high (85 Lumens), Max (205 Lumens). It also has strobe, beacon and SOS. It will run 30 days on moonlight and 1.3 hours on Max. I use rechargeable AA Eneloop batteries that have 1500 charge cycles and hold up to 75% of full charge for 3 years. I charge them on average every six weeks with normal use.
As you can see, you can easily use Kraig's technique of a lower lumens, stealthier light and still deliver 205 eye searing, room illuminating lumens if you want/need too.
Having a practical/tactical flashlight as part of your EDC and knowing how best to employ it, is the only way to go, IMHO.
FireForged
New member
IMO, dealing with a SD issue by myself...A flashlight has no place on my weapon. I am fortunate that the street lights give off enough that I can see throughout my house "good enough" with just cracked blindes. If I have to use a flashlight I use fenix TA20 led on it lowest setting (for spot on identification)
I do have one of those clear baseball sized LED glowballs. I can roll it into a room and it gives off plenty of light to see anyone in there.
I do have one of those clear baseball sized LED glowballs. I can roll it into a room and it gives off plenty of light to see anyone in there.
FireForged said:
One of the features of a weapon mounted light, is that it can be left in the off position. The mere fact that its mounted doesn't necessitate its use. Yet it remains ready to go at a touch.
I think lights are really useful additions. I don't have one on a pistol right now, but I have one mounted on my HD shotgun. Its not in the way and is very useful, if I need it. Like I said earlier, its mere presence, does not mean it has to be used, but its there.
Frank Ettin
Administrator
Even though there is a fair amount of ambient light from outside, I'd still want to have a flashlight. Shadows can be tricky. But I do prefer a handheld light.
Double Naught Spy
New member
LOL, just because somebody is your neighbor doesn't necessarily mean that they are a friendly or that your first inclination should be to believe that they are there simply because they are confused in some manner.
You know, there have been a lot of criminal acts committed by neighbors robbing, raping, and murdering one another. Maybe it is your poor, confused, diabetic neighbor who is unintentionally in your home, but having a delusion where he feels he needs to harm you or your family. Just because it is medical-based or chemical-induced condition doesn't mean he won't be a determined attacker.
There are very valid arguments on both sides, as always when this type of discussion comes up.
My thought is simllicity. I dont keep a hadgun as part, of my hd setup anymore. I did for several years and always had a couple staged in various safe locations. Always had a light spare magazine or speed loader and kept near a phone. To much gear to deal with in the middle of the nihjt, under strsess and fear. The real value of the weapon mounted light is grab and go simplicity. Now my cell phone is always in my pocket or on the charger, my rifle is always close and in conditoon three and Im pretty confadent that I can make the phone call gather the kids and.gf and egress to the safe room with a minimul rjisk of fkrgetting anything. We all think ahead and train to one degree or another and all practice. However the reality is this would be a terrifying situation while your half asleep or in some other vonerable state (my worst fear is being invaded/roken into whike Im in the shower or takeing a sit down head call lol) aveing the light on the weapon eliminates the risk of forgetting it. And if your alone or acting as the only fighting componant of the family, you should not be "clearing" the house. Light up the approach to your position and leave it lighted up,let them knkw where you are. They will leave you alone in most every situation and if they dont you have a clear positional advantage.
My thought is simllicity. I dont keep a hadgun as part, of my hd setup anymore. I did for several years and always had a couple staged in various safe locations. Always had a light spare magazine or speed loader and kept near a phone. To much gear to deal with in the middle of the nihjt, under strsess and fear. The real value of the weapon mounted light is grab and go simplicity. Now my cell phone is always in my pocket or on the charger, my rifle is always close and in conditoon three and Im pretty confadent that I can make the phone call gather the kids and.gf and egress to the safe room with a minimul rjisk of fkrgetting anything. We all think ahead and train to one degree or another and all practice. However the reality is this would be a terrifying situation while your half asleep or in some other vonerable state (my worst fear is being invaded/roken into whike Im in the shower or takeing a sit down head call lol) aveing the light on the weapon eliminates the risk of forgetting it. And if your alone or acting as the only fighting componant of the family, you should not be "clearing" the house. Light up the approach to your position and leave it lighted up,let them knkw where you are. They will leave you alone in most every situation and if they dont you have a clear positional advantage.