Flagship Guns

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I always thought of "flagship" as being the top of the line model. So if a company offers a performance model, above and beyond their standard production line, then that would be the "flagship". Smith and Wesson's performance center options would be an example.

It also has to be a production item, not a one off, or very limited production "special edition" but something offered continually, even if supply is limited by lower production numbers.


If you are constraining yourself to models marketed or at least suitable to defensive use, then that changes things.
 
Sig P210 is a SIG product.

P220 and it's descendants are from a different company, a partnership of SIG and Sauer. However, SIG has produced Sig Sauer handguns, and now with the resurrected 210 Legacy, vice versa. But the classic 210 is SIG product. So the top SIG Sauer handgun reasonably is one of the X5/X6 models or the P220 Elite Match.
 
What might be more entertaining is to pick the top 5 guns / mfg's out of the OP's list....??

Mine would be :

Wilson Combat CQB ( in .45 acp or 9mm )
Freedom Arms model 83 ( in .357 Mag )
Sig Sauer 226 X-Five L-1 model ( in .40 S&W - or 9mm )
S&W model 27 DA revolver ( .357 Mag )
Ed Brown Kobra model ( in .45 acp )

but not trying to start a Riot...
 
Walther = P99 or PPK

Your "discontinued" caveat kills this one IMHO. The Luger is the best pistol they ever made. If you were going to pick a current production gun the PPQ will be around long after the P99 is gone, which IMHO is very soon. How can one of the flagships be such a poor seller.
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The P99 is quite popular in the European LE/military market. Just because it's not a bigger seller in the US civilian market doesn't mean it's a "poor seller."

That said, if you were looking for a historical "flagship" it would be hard to not pick the superb Walther P88 - which was a very poor seller.
 
Fishbed77 said:
The P99 is quite popular in the European LE/military market.
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According to Wikipedia (which may not be up-to-date), only the Finnish, Ukraine, and Portuguese military use them... and those aren't LARGE military forces. Some police units have adopted it. (One large German police department bought 40,000 of them), but the rest of the police departments cited are arguably much smaller. Iraq's military bought a bunch, too, but that's not Europe.

Popular? Maybe, but not nearly as popular as SIG, H&K, Beretta, Glock, or even CZ.

The P99 seems like a good design, and I've always wanted one -- but not enough to buy a new one. Had I been able to trade for one, I would have.
 
According to Wikipedia (which may not be up-to-date), only the Finnish, Ukraine, and Portuguese military use them... and those aren't LARGE military forces.
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You are missing Poland which has adopted them in fairly numbers as the P99RAD (from which the PPQ is drived). A number of larger police forces in Germany, Austria (!) and Ireland have adopted variants of the P99 as well.

Popular? Maybe, but not nearly as popular as SIG, H&K, Beretta, Glock, or even CZ.
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No one said they were as popular as those pistols, but the design has never been a "poor seller."

Consider the fact that Walther was content for many years to barely even market the P99 in the US (through S&W), as they were content with their European/global LE/mil sales. Only recently have they begun a push in the US through Walther America.
 
No one said they were as popular as those pistols, but the design has never been a "poor seller."
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Sorry but globally it is still a poor seller. In fact most of Walters current production pistols have been poor sellers.
 
Walt Sherrill said:
According to Wikipedia (which may not be up-to-date), only the Finnish, Ukraine, and Portuguese military use them... and those aren't LARGE military forces. Some police units have adopted it. (One large German police department bought 40,000 of them), but the rest of the police departments cited are arguably much smaller. Iraq's military bought a bunch, too, but that's not Europe.
Fishbed77 said:
You are missing Poland which has adopted them in fairly numbers as the P99RAD (from which the PPQ is drived). A number of larger police forces in Germany, Austria (!) and Ireland have adopted variants of the P99 as well.
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The P99 is NOT a widely used military weapon. (Portugal may be a military user, but I can find nothing about them using P99s in a military application. I have seen elsewhere that Portugal, in 2009, bought 20,000+ Glocks with THUMB SAFETY LEVERS for POLICE USE and later decided to retrofit all of their other Glocks to the same configuration.

You're right: I did overlook Poland. That was a large POLICE acquisition. (And at least one of those models, the AS, made in Poland, is, in effect, the PPQ, subtly different from the P99. That Polish-made PP0AS/PPQ is one of the reasons I suspect the P99 is going to be discontinued -- it's been superceded by more-evolved models.

"Quite popular" seems to be a low theshold for you...
 
You're right: I did overlook Poland. That was a large POLICE acquisition.
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The Polish military bought 21,000 P99s in 2011:

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2011/10/05/poland-to-buy-21000-pistols-from-radom/

"Quite popular" seems to be a low theshold (sic) for you...
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Hey - I'm just posting facts... and I don't do internet pi$$ing contests, so this will be my final statement on the fact.

If the P99 was such a poor seller (at least compared to Walther's expectations), it boggles the mind and defies reality that such a product would remain on the market for 18 years (so far). Walther has explicitly stated that they have no intention of discontinuing the P99 in the foreseeable future.

If it was Glock's premier 9mm pistol, then yes - maybe you could call it a poor seller. But it's not a Glock - it's a Walther and that's all it's being compared too (since the OP is specifically focused on pistols within a manufacturer's line). If you want to compare the design to every other pistol out there - well the P99 has probably outsold half of the pistols listed in the original post.
 
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You stated some facts. That's fine. Then you characterized those facts -- which is NOT a fact but your interpretation of the facts -- value added, i.e., an opinion.

As I said before, the P99 looks like a good design and maybe a good gun. I've just not been able to find one used... or I'd probably have one. (They're not readily seen in this part of the country. (I might've tried the S&W version, but couldn't find one of those, either.)
 
You stated some facts. That's fine. Then you characterized those facts -- which is NOT a fact but a characterization or, in other words, an opinion.
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As did you. You expressed an opinion. I expressed a counterpoint with factual information to back it up. Don't you love free speech and the exchange of ideas! And I managed to do it without even resorting to a personal attack!

But I will post one more correction to what you've posted before I leave:

(And at least one of those models, the AS, made in Poland, is, in effect, the PPQ, subtly different from the P99. That Polish-made PP0AS/PPQ is one of the reasons I suspect the P99 is going to be discontinued -- it's been superceded by more-evolved models.
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The P99AS is made by Walther in Germany and by Radom in Poland. The Polish-made P99RAD is the pistol that is (with minor trigger variations) essentially the same as the P99Q (not to be confused with the discontinued P99QA) and PPQ.

That said, I am done with this thread, as is has gone quickly off topic.


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The definition of flagship is probably very difficult and possibly meaningless with companies founded over a century ago, and/or companies producing dozens of product lines each comprising dozens of products. I don't even think there would be any point in attempting to define a 'flagship' SD weapon from S&W...it's The Revolver Company, but I sure don't see it producing a revolver that it would call Our Flagship SD Revolver.

The idea that manufacturers of that sort have a flagship product at all is the flawed premise--I don't believe they do, and I think the days of 'flagships' are long gone.
 
Fishbed77 said:
That said, I am done with this thread, as is has gone quickly off topic.
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Me too. I came across a bit more abrasively than I should have (and in retrospect, than I really meant to). My apologies.

No reason to make enemies on these forums when we all need friends.

Sorry.

(Is the FISHBED of your 'nom de net based on the FISHBED from the old Soviet Union (MIG-21) still in use around the world?
 
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