Fixing the M16/M4

I was thinking last night of all the posters who keep saying that the 5.56mm/M-16 combo is okay, it's not broken, no one is complaining, works great, all the bugs are fixed, etc. And yes, I do believe there are thousands, if not tens of thousands, of Soldiers and Marines who will tell you its great, and they use it effectively.

Now go back 200 years, and talk to one of the King's soldiers about his Brown Bess musket. He would tell you it was all one could ask of an infantryman's weapon, and no one was complaining for something better. It had won battles all over the world. It had won WARS all over the world, in all climates and conditions, against savages and well trained Continental armies. A Brown Bess with a good, straight bore could hit a man at 75 yards, it could fire 2-3 times a minute, and the bayonet insured it was effective in any weather. It was used in one form or another for over a century, from 1722-1830's.

How come you suppose it was replaced? Who had the gall to look at the Brown Bess and say, "I can do better than that, a lot better."

Who could argue that the Enfields and Springfields of the Civil War weren't more effective than the soldiers and generals of that time? What's not to like about rifles that could make regiments evaporate in a few minute's time? Wasn't that lethal enough, for God's sake?

Why go to the Garand when no one could use one to outshoot the Topkick or Gunny when he got down prone with his '03 Springfield? Could you do any better than Alvin York and his 1917 Enfield, given your choice of rifles?

I am sure the M-16 is "good enough", just as all these weapons listed above were in their time. But it is time to see what advances have transpired in the last 40 years and apply it. Soldiers happy at regularly knocking bad guys over at 100 yards will be happy to knock them over at 300 yards. Guys happy cleaning their guns every day so they won't jam will still clean their guns every day even if missing one day won't be fatal.

I think it is a fallacious argument to say that today's soldiers are faithfully devoted to the 5.56mm / M-16 combo when they haven't had the opportunity to try some of the other offerings. I am sure the King's men would have swapped their beloved Brown Besses for an M-16, if they only knew such a weapon was possible.
 
I am sure the King's men would have swapped their beloved Brown Besses for an M-16, if they only knew such a weapon was possible.

That is exactly my point. Why all the tax dollars poured into the memory hole to finance the replacement of a gas-operated poodleshooter with plastic accoutrements with... another gas-operated poodleshooter with plastic accoutrements? This isn't replacing Brown Bess with an M-16, it's merely nattering about which size flint works best in the lock. Who's researching the percussion cap?
 
/*Bottom line is this: If you aren't willing to stand in front of me and let me shoot you with it 150 meters, it works.*/

If you aren't willing to stand 20 feet away from me with a yard dart and let me wing it at you, it works.

Of course, we will both look pretty foolish if some guy with a 7.62x51 (or 6.5 Grendel, or something "deer" size) decides things should be settled at 300 meters, won't we? That will be the new bottom line.

You might also want to think about what happens when the next big combat deployment of U.S. troops finds you opposite some guys who doesn't have the horrible marksmanship skills that the terrorists in Iraq have displayed, as widely commented on by many who have faced them.
My cousin's convoy (1075th, from Nebraska) was ambushed at pointblank range a few weeks ago, with RPGs and AKs, and they and some Kentucky MPs massacred the terrorists with only one U.S. wounded because of a bullet.

I could not imagine American troops only hitting one guy if the positions were switched. I can imagine others not Americans doing better. You might do well to imagine that also.
 
Artsmom,
The best part about the .223 is WHY it was adopted. Yes, the reasons are many and legendary.

The one I like the best is that 'da military' figured out that grunts couldn't hit targets 1000 yds away. Or 500 or 300 or 200 yards and that MOST combat occurs at 100 yds OR LESS. WHATEVER floats your boat.

This is kind of like my other BIG complaint. WHERE THE HELL ARE THE FLYING CARS THAT WE WERE ALL PROMISED BACK IN THE FIFTIES??? Or jet packs, or beam me up Scottie, or whatever...

Time marches on while SOME industries don't move until forced. This is as true of the firearms industry as it is of the automobile industry.
 
A couple of points.

Funny I just talked to 2 vets yesterday who were issued the M-14 while serving in Nam. All M-14's can be fired full auto. Squad leader held the key to switch them. The M-14 to this date is still the Navy's service rifle.

Wallew, I might be wrong but it seems to me you feel there was something wrong with the M-1 design. Yeah, it's 60 years old, but have you ever fired one of these old war horses? Even the youngest kid I know who knows nothing of WWII except for what he has seen on TV understands after the first trigger pull why we won the war.

The old saying "don't fix it enless it's broke" works well but the trouble with our gobermemts thinking is "fix it until it ends up broke". I have never been on the butt stock end of a rifle where lot's of people were shooting at me, (I'm a cop but it hasn't been the same yet) but I have helped send aircraft off a flat top into a combat zone a couple of times. I don't believe that there is one single weapon system (read service rifle) that will do everything we need it to do no matter how fancy you get.

38SPL...thanks for your service. Just so you know the guys with the red windshield stickers to let them on base get a lot more warnings than Joe Blow with out one. ;)
 
I LOVE the M1 Garand. Even when it runs dry, you can still kill your enemy by turning into a fairly effective club. Which happened once or twice in KOREA. I've owned both the M1 Garand, M1 Carbine, M14 and the AR15. I just never felt the .223 cartridge was a great round. Please no flames, it's just MY opinion.

Most don't realize or remember that it wasn't until JFK's Robert McNamara that services started standarizing things. Like shoes. Or greens. OR WEAPONS.

Until 1965, every service bought everything independent of each other. I am confident they still got decent pricing from a quantity stand point.
 
The one I like the best is that 'da military' figured out that grunts couldn't hit targets 1000 yds away. Or 500 or 300 or 200 yards and that MOST combat occurs at 100 yds OR LESS. WHATEVER floats your boat.
You misunderstand. It isn't a question of marksmanship, but of opportunity. There are rarely any clean shots to be made at longer distances. Practical engagement distances were much shorter. "Da military", in this case, is every major world power that all came to the same conclusion, starting with the Germans and Russians (who know a thing or two about fighting wars).


Most don't realize or remember that it wasn't until JFK's Robert McNamara that services started standarizing things.
This is a bizarre simplification of fact. All the services used the same rifles from WWI on, if the standard service rifle was available. The Marines didn't take Johnson's to Korea - they were gone as soon as the Garands were available. What might have been administratively true is shown to be false in fact.

And of course you're aware that the Navy never adopted the M-16. There goes that theory.
 
From Pat Rogers :
As to a 6mm round replacing the 5.56x45mm, could you cite your sources? It is news to me, and may be just so much more wishing by some- just as the XM-8 being a replacement for anything.


From Wallew:
1st - NO I AM NOT ALLOWED TO NAME MY SOURCES - per their request. Believe me or don't, I just don't care. Beside, I did NOT write the article, I just reported on it.

Wallew,

Might I just suggest you do a little research on WHO Pat Rogers is, and maybe that will help you decide whether you should trust Pat Rogers (which is what I recommend) or your unnamed sources. Just a friendly suggestion. ;)

I.G.B.
 
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