Edward429451
Moderator
It just sounds bad to hear Americans talking like that. We used to be a good strong country with a rifle behind each blade of grass. Times change I guess. You tryna make me feel old?
First Video Footage of Utah Mall Shooting...
- Thread starter KWBSales
- Start date
Edward429451
Moderator
Hey thanks for the referance from an authoritive source mvpel.
Don, is that statement not succinct and to the point?
The point is to give all you people the other side of the coin to think about. This is a debate forum and people who come read here should have something to chew on besides: Everyone should be armed and defend themselves, if the planets are aligned, it's the third thursday of the month, you're in your own home and have already retreated and taken 2.7 rounds from the BG. Thats hogwash. Le's use some critical thinking skills and realize that we may be able to help our communities and our country by stepping up to the plate. If you would be willing to pull someone from a burning car, knowing it could blow up and kill you, then you should be willing to engage a wacko who is on a rampage killing innocent people, irregardless of the statutory laws.
gc70, many more generations have been told by THE authority to "don't just stand there, try to help."
Don, is that statement not succinct and to the point?
The point is to give all you people the other side of the coin to think about. This is a debate forum and people who come read here should have something to chew on besides: Everyone should be armed and defend themselves, if the planets are aligned, it's the third thursday of the month, you're in your own home and have already retreated and taken 2.7 rounds from the BG. Thats hogwash. Le's use some critical thinking skills and realize that we may be able to help our communities and our country by stepping up to the plate. If you would be willing to pull someone from a burning car, knowing it could blow up and kill you, then you should be willing to engage a wacko who is on a rampage killing innocent people, irregardless of the statutory laws.
gc70, many more generations have been told by THE authority to "don't just stand there, try to help."
Edward429451
Moderator
Broad, yes. Vague, no. Apllicable to the SLC situation, maybe not. Sometimes situations are such that its impossible to help.
If us responsible gunowners tried as hard to help people as we do to jump through the administrative hoops to be correct & lawful...The world would be a better place. Sometimes the law is not entirely correct and we have a responsibility to search our hearts to do the right thing where the law fails.
If us responsible gunowners tried as hard to help people as we do to jump through the administrative hoops to be correct & lawful...The world would be a better place. Sometimes the law is not entirely correct and we have a responsibility to search our hearts to do the right thing where the law fails.
All guns should be outlawed, then something like this could never happen. Also, they need to make that "no weapons" sign bigger. The problem is that the shooter proably didn't see it and wasn't aware of the malls policy. Since the shooters parents didn't speak english its also the malls fault for not printing the policy in multiple languages to ensure that people of all cultures know that they are not permited to bring firearms onto mall propery and fire them at mall patrions.
Sarcasm aside, someone made the comment about having to relly on mall security. I know for a fact that the security at trolly square is unarmed. They don't even have pepper spray. I have a friend who is a security guard for that particular mall and he tells me his only real power is to chase those damn skate punks off the rails. He also assists in walking pretty girls who work at the mall to their cars late at night.
Thats all said, I carry regularly and live withing 5 min of the mall in question. Had I been there I seriously doubt I would have tracked the shooter down to engage him Bruce Willis Die Hard style. If the shooter came my way and I thought I had a clean shot then I would like to think I would have the courage to use the tools at my disposal to save those people who could not protect them selves. I would only do this if my actions would prevent the death of someone who was in immediate danger.
I'd like to hear others thoughts on the situation.
also, The CCW issue has been disscussed on local talk radio. Most of the TV news outlets keep reminding us that the mall shoper who engaged the shooter with his concealed carry weapon was a police officer. He was employed by a town 45 min to the north. He was not working, just shoping with his wife. Effectively, he was just like one of us on our day off. News outlets reassure us he was a trained officer as if that somehow makes him super human in his ability to aim and shoot a gun. It really bothers me that had he not been an officer, that his heroic actions (officer or not, what he did took courage) would have been questioned and accused of vigilante behavior. Utah is a very gun friendly place and even here is amazes me the ignorance regarding firearms. People I know who have lived here their whole lives are shocked to find out that there is no waiting period on any guns. You walk in with a AMEX and walk out with a USP. The population is too easliy influnced by hollywood and what they see on the "news". Sad.
Sarcasm aside, someone made the comment about having to relly on mall security. I know for a fact that the security at trolly square is unarmed. They don't even have pepper spray. I have a friend who is a security guard for that particular mall and he tells me his only real power is to chase those damn skate punks off the rails. He also assists in walking pretty girls who work at the mall to their cars late at night.
Thats all said, I carry regularly and live withing 5 min of the mall in question. Had I been there I seriously doubt I would have tracked the shooter down to engage him Bruce Willis Die Hard style. If the shooter came my way and I thought I had a clean shot then I would like to think I would have the courage to use the tools at my disposal to save those people who could not protect them selves. I would only do this if my actions would prevent the death of someone who was in immediate danger.
I'd like to hear others thoughts on the situation.
also, The CCW issue has been disscussed on local talk radio. Most of the TV news outlets keep reminding us that the mall shoper who engaged the shooter with his concealed carry weapon was a police officer. He was employed by a town 45 min to the north. He was not working, just shoping with his wife. Effectively, he was just like one of us on our day off. News outlets reassure us he was a trained officer as if that somehow makes him super human in his ability to aim and shoot a gun. It really bothers me that had he not been an officer, that his heroic actions (officer or not, what he did took courage) would have been questioned and accused of vigilante behavior. Utah is a very gun friendly place and even here is amazes me the ignorance regarding firearms. People I know who have lived here their whole lives are shocked to find out that there is no waiting period on any guns. You walk in with a AMEX and walk out with a USP. The population is too easliy influnced by hollywood and what they see on the "news". Sad.
Playboypenguin
Moderator
That's a funny one.
No offense to the active LEO's on this board, but when I was in law enforcement I was amazed at the lack of skills with a firearm and general poor handling habits most officers displayed.
I even made a post not too long ago about how I was unfortunate enough to be present at a local law enforcement agencies firearms qualifications. I left very afraid.
IMHO, on any given day of the week, if you chose ten randomm LEO's and ten random CCW license holders and had a firearms competition the LEO's would walk away not only defeated but embarrassed. Not to mention how the license holders would also probably have alot more general handgun knowledge. I have been amazed in the past at some things said by LEO's.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
Playboy - not to argue but I tend to think you overestimate the average CHL holder. I'm being cynical but my trainer friends tell me that most folks get the permit just so that they can carry in their car. They never train or compete.
At least, police get some training. I think you are overestimating the competence based on the committed folks you meet. I have friend with CHLs who talk the gun talk but have little training or experience under stress. I doubt they would be superhuman deadly shots in the mall situation.
The experience we have had with two CHLs in rampage situations lately haven't been that good. Yes, they aided in the situation but the Tyler gentleman (a hero surely) made some serious tactical errors as did the gentleman in the previous Washington state mall shoot out - where he didn't fire and got shot himself.
Now, these numbers are too small for any reasonable conclusion but I'm just more cynical about the average CHL. I certainly don't see all the CHLs in San Antonio turn out for a match or a class. It's usually the same gang.
At least, police get some training. I think you are overestimating the competence based on the committed folks you meet. I have friend with CHLs who talk the gun talk but have little training or experience under stress. I doubt they would be superhuman deadly shots in the mall situation.
The experience we have had with two CHLs in rampage situations lately haven't been that good. Yes, they aided in the situation but the Tyler gentleman (a hero surely) made some serious tactical errors as did the gentleman in the previous Washington state mall shoot out - where he didn't fire and got shot himself.
Now, these numbers are too small for any reasonable conclusion but I'm just more cynical about the average CHL. I certainly don't see all the CHLs in San Antonio turn out for a match or a class. It's usually the same gang.
It's pretty easy for some to talk about what they would or would not have done in this situation,or what others actually present should have done. Training, experience and personal courage would certainly enter into one's response. Contrary to what some seem to believe about police officers firearms skills in general, the officers in this town actually seem pretty competent in both their marksmanship and tactics. I have participated in three or four concealed weapon permit initial/renewal classes. The firearms proficiancy, and perception of the rights and resposibilities, of persons carrying a concealed weapon, displayed by the vast majority of the participants was troubling to say the least. I would question if any of the CCW class participants, at least in the classes I attended, would be able to effectively employ a firearm in a similar situation. I wasn't there and I won't pretend to judge the courage or actions of those that were. I do think that young off duty officer conducted himself appropriately and courageously.