First Video Footage of Utah Mall Shooting...

"Courageous" video? Not that I blame the guy taking the video one bit, but the headline author demeans the term "courage."

And I can't decide what makes me sicker, the idea of being unarmed and defenseless and cowering inside a tacky gift shop while people are being killed, or the killer himself.
 
Sadly, today this is what passes for courage. If you actually seek out and engage a BG, you are insane or just plain blood thirsty. America... :rolleyes:

Land of the what, home of the what?
Surely they jest.
 
I wonder if the mall had a "no guns" policy like the Simon malls here in New Hampshire, including the Mall of New Hampshire?
 
A few people in other threads said guns were banned in that mall.

Makes me wonder how many of the shots fired in that video were misses.
 
not much to see. I see a few policemen cautiously going by the camera at a few points and I hear a few gunshots and shouting in the background.

Courage? Not really. Courageous cameramen are the ones who followed the Marines onto Tarawa and Iwo Jima and filmed the action. Not somebody hiding behind some shelves in a mall store pointing a camera at the door.

Like someone else said, not that I blame the guy with the camera hiding in the store.
 
I'd love to see substantiation of that gun ban rumor - I did some searching to see if I could find the mall webpage, but got thousands of hits about the shooting instead.
 
I wonder if the mall had a "no guns" policy like the Simon malls here in New Hampshire, including the Mall of New Hampshire?
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A few people in other threads said guns were banned in that mall.
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I'd love to see substantiation of that gun ban rumor
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It is not illegal to CCW in any mall in Utah. Signage banning CCW has no force of law, neither does "mall policy". The most that could be done would be to ask you to leave. Failure to leave would be trespassing. No different than ignoring a sign that required a person to wear shoes in the mall.
 
TrolleySquareGunBan.JPG


Photo courtesy of W. Clark Aposhian.
 
I agree that the term "courageous" had no place in that title. Truth being told though, if it was me and I was armed I would have most likely did what the guy shooting the video did and hunker down and let the police handle it. As long as my family was safe I would probably not get involved. Sacrificing my own life would be a horrible thing to do to my loved ones.
 
I wonder if the mall had a "no guns" policy like the Simon malls here in New Hampshire, including the Mall of New Hampshire?
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No matter what signage they post, it still is not illegal. Nor is it effective.
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Which makes it about the same as the policy at the Mall of New Hampshire. That policy hasn't stopped me from carrying on the few occassions I've felt the need to venture into the mall.

Anybody who trusts what shopping malls call "security" to provide protection for them needs to have their head examined.
 
Never said it was illegal, I should mention.

This looks like a job for the Gun Free Zone Liability Act...
 
This looks like a job for the Gun Free Zone Liability Act...
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The Gun Free Zone Liability Act. I think I could support that, unless it's a misnomer like the "USA Patriot Act".

badbob
 
The courageous thing is just him getting a star on the curve (like kindergardners) for being a good little sheeple and doing what the administration wants.

The sign didn't work, and yet, if a ccw, or even a non 'permitted' ccw was there and engaged the BG, he'd be called a BG and charged too. America.

It's a shame that modern era has come to reward (& call courageous!) the type of behavior that killed Kitty Genovese. It's called intelligence to not even try to help your neighbors of your community in a sudden emergency! I'm not saying that I would've rushed out and engaged the BG, just that it's never sat well with me the thought of don't get involved, let the authorities handle it. Hide for my families sake? Of course I don't want to die, but am I not morally expected to have a sense of civic duty? Aren't we all?

There's a wacko over there with a SG shooting people randomly. There's people in the wrecked car that is on fire over there. I might burn my hands, I might get shot. My family's worth more than those people? Sounds good on paper I guess but there's something that don't ring 100% about the correctness of that line of thinking. Let them die for what is ultimately selfish motive? Whats happening to mainstream thinking? It's called giving back to the community, which is our extended family. We used to roast the people who wouldn't help Kitty Genovese, and now they would be called courageous and good family people...:barf: My conscience wont let me buy it.
 
There's a wacko over there with a SG shooting people randomly. There's people in the wrecked car that is on fire over there. I might burn my hands, I might get shot. My family's worth more than those people? Sounds good on paper I guess but there's something that don't ring 100% about the correctness of that line of thinking. Let them die for what is ultimately selfish motive? Whats happening to mainstream thinking? It's called giving back to the community, which is our extended family. We used to roast the people who wouldn't help Kitty Genovese, and now they would be called courageous and good family people...
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Surely you are not comparing pulling someone from a burning car with getting between the local authorities as they do their job and the bad guy. When that guy was filming the police were already on the scene. Even if he had been armed he would have no business involving himself in the gunfight.

Not to mention that even when protecting yourself or a bystander you are usually not allowed by law to procede to a scene in which you are not already involved. Doing so would probably end up with you being charged with a crime also, being sued by the shooters family, or anyone else your actions may have brought harm to if you shoot the wrong person or miss and hit a bystander.

If I was there when it happened I would have first seen to the safety of my loved ones and then did what I could to protect others. If I was at the other end of the store in a shop (as it appears the camera man was) I would not go racing to the scene. I do not see myself as Rambo. More than likely I would only end up shot by authorities. I would have had people seek cover, then sought cover (with a good viewpoint) myself with my weapon at the ready and held my ground in case he approached.

Running TOWARDS a gunfight is seldom a good idea.

People are issued carry permits primarily for one purpose..SELF defense. Not to be a back-up or substitute police force. Trying to take that role would probably end up in disaster and start people thinkng that their are way to many people out there with a hero complex and a gun. If you want to help your community volunteer your time at a shelter, give money to the humane society, clean up a road, work in a soup kitchen, visit the elderly...don't strap on a gun and try to be a self appointed protector of the innocent and punisher of bad guys. None of this precludes you from pushing someone out from in front of a speeding car or rescuing someone from a burning building. They are a completely different scenerio which does not include killing someone to protect someone else and they do not involve breaking the law.

This is all just my opinion. I am no stranger to dangerous situations. I went to Panama and the first Gulf War and saw combat more than once. I did what I was supposed to do without a second thought but I still know my place and when to let professionals handle the situation. I also know where my loyalties lie. My first loyalty is to my family, after that comes friends and innocents and my community. Abstracts like god and country never even figure into the equation for me (a reference to the following post). When I went overseas and fought I did so for my family, friends, and fellow citizens...not for some supreme being or for a flag.
 
Inversion

We've had a loyalty inversion. My Great Grandfather fought in WWI, even though his wife was pregnant. Both of my grandfathers fought in WWII. One had a new bride and the other had a baby boy (my dad). The loyalty of our citizenry went something like, "God, country, family..." in that order. Now its, "Self, family, property, ideals, friends, etc." God and country don't even rate any more. I thank the hippies. Too busy protesting Viet Nam to pick up a shovel and lend a hand. When I saw that reporter calling our President "Mr. Bush" I wanted to reach through the T.V. and slap some respect into him (the reporter, not the pres.).

I have a feeling that the next couple of big attacks by terrorists will act as a glass of ice water to the face of America. Of course, there will be a herd of college profs telling our youth that it's our fault for being prosperous. I want to choke them all.
 
Surely you are not comparing pulling someone from a burning car with getting between the local authorities as they do their job and the bad guy. When that guy was filming the police were already on the scene. Even if he had been armed he would have no business involving himself in the gunfight.
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Well, yes I am. Whats the difference? If I got burned arms I couldn't work so there's the fam to thiink about first, right? That would be the direction your logic was taking, save yourself & the fam.

I didn't mean get inbetween the police, I was postulating being there at first shots fired, before the police showed up. The tone of your post leads me to believe that you'd hide with/without the fam. I said I wouldn't rush to engage the BG, but society & humans being what it is, I/we/you should do something if circumstances allow for it at all. We shouldn't plan to not do anything, it sounds bad and would be reprehensible to me to even consider it. Sorry if I misunderstand you, but you come across like you care not for your fellow man?

I would do what I could that the circumstances allowed for. This is not rambo talk, it's being willing to help in an emergency. If the police are on the scene, all a citizen could do is add confusion to the LEO's already tense situation, not good. But if they're not...my god man, would you really leave the defensless to fend for themselves? Thats wrong.
 
I guess you misunderstood my post then. I was dealing with the situation that the camera man appeared to be in at the time of the filming. He was not in the immediate vacinity of the bad guy and police were on the scene.

If I was there when the guy pulled the gun I would do as I stated in my last post and see to the safety of my family and then deal with the bad guy as best I could but if I was not on the scene I would no procede to that scene if authorities were already there as was evident in this video. I am not law enforcement nor am I a self appointed punisher of bad guys.
 
Different people have different views on their obligations to society. Several generations have now been officially told to "leave it to the professionals."
 
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