First time ND'er...Glad I followed the other rules...

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Beentown71

New member
Had my first ND today. I was shooting in my back 40 range and had some family out there with me. I was shooting a Bersa .380 one handed and someone started moving past the firing line beside me. I put my left hand on their arm to stop them while trying to decock the hammer with the safety. Well the gun was slick due to being over oiled and my thumb slipped off the safety and then bang :eek:... After my thumb slipped off the safety my trigger finger musta hit. I kept the firearm pointed down range and this is what we walked away with:

P1060680.jpg


I got a bit of slide bite. I will take it with a smile because it could have been alot worse.

Happy...err....safe shooting,

Beentown
 
Glad you are OK and you're right, the trouble really starts when you start breaking the rules of safety in combination.
 
Glad your honest and its a good reminder to follow all safety rules.It happened during range session in a safe direction of down range.I can understand with the distraction of another possiably walking in the line of fire you prevented that from happening and thats good.


I always think its best when a sudden safety issues arises to seize fire and best to get the trigger finger off, out of the trigger guard and paralle to the slide or cylinder if revolver.



Its best not to try to fumble with decockers or hammers or the safety.finger off and out and away gun down on table facing down range if possiable.
 
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this is one of the very few cases where I think I would call it an AD instead of an ND. You weren't neligent. You were trying to adhere to multiple safety rules at once. While focusing your attention to one aspect of safety, you tried to conform to other safety rules @ the same time while not paying attention. You could argue that it's negligent, but I would honestly say that this was accidental. You followed all other safety rules and it sounds like you were doing your best to use common sense. Good job on keeping everything down range and away from causing real damage :). Don't beat yourself up, but of course learn from it!
 
I have to agree with 5whiskey. There was an element that was out of your control and you were trying to stop them.
The over oiling of the gun was your fault but you making sure someone was not walking onto a live range so it is more of an accidental dishcharge then your own neglagence
 
Thanks for posting. It can happen to any one, at any time. Just another reminder for all of us to stay on top of our gun handling procedures.
 
I actually consider it an AD also. Just seems everything gets lumped into ND anymore.

I know why this happened looking back now... I had put 150 rounds that day through my 92fs which I am very familiar with. I use the decocker/safety to bring the hammer down and return the gun back to "safe". I can do this one handed very easily with the 92fs. Well the Bersa is my BIL's and with the combination of it having too much oil on the safety and it being alot harder to decock is what happened. My finger was indexed but slipped of due to oil and pressure i was using trying to get the safety/decocker down.

Beentown
 
I was at the range once during a work week when they first opened and I was the only shooter at the time.I just got done loading a couple of mags and wiping the sites from residue.

I picked up the gun chambered the first round and the owner of the range who I have known over 25 yrs had walked out in the line of fire stairing down the barrel of a 45. When I seen him his eyes was about as big as a owl and He was as white as a ghost. when He put his hand to stop, I already had the finger away and the gun going down on the table.


I think my heart skipped a few beats and his stopped for a second or two.He totally forgot about me being there. It was very quiet while I was loading up and wiping down.He just said wow what the hay was I thinking and thanked me for being aware.He was fixing one of the cables on the pulleys that send and retrieve the targets when he walked out from the wall dividing the other lanes.:eek:We both needed a stiff drink after that.If I had a bottle of jack I think I would retired the guns and we both would have been drinking.
 
How exactly is there even such a thing as an accidental discharge?

It's an ND. If you are diligent about handling your firearm, it won't put a bullet where you don't want one... EVER. The only exception is a complete mechanical failure.

Am I missing something? Everything gets lumped into ND because guns don't just go off. If you don't touch the trigger, they just sit there. If you break the rules, bullets go where you don't want them to go.

Someone help me...
 
AD/ND/UD?

GuyMontag said:
How exactly is there even such a thing as an accidental discharge?

It's an ND. If you are diligent about handling your firearm, it won't put a bullet where you don't want one... EVER. The only exception is a complete mechanical failure.

Am I missing something? Everything gets lumped into ND because guns don't just go off. If you don't touch the trigger, they just sit there. If you break the rules, bullets go where you don't want them to go.

Someone help me...
Click to expand...
You can define away the existence of Accidental Discharges, but that would negate the utility of the distinction between Operator Error and Accidents. A distinction is useful in analysis and prevention.

If an operator does something wrong, that is negligence.

It is possible for an operator to do everything right and still have something go wrong. That is an accident.

3 cases in point.

A well-maintained fully operational Colt 1991 pistol with safety engaged is carried into a room with an operational MRI machine. The gun is drawn into the machine and experiences a classic muzzle-impact discharge. The gun was still cocked and locked (with the spent cartridge case still in the chamber) when recovered from the MRI machine. Accident or Negligence? Carrying the gun into the room might be negligent, but losing the gun to the magnetice field sounds like an accident. For certain, there was no mechanical failure.

A holstered Ruger Old Model (unconverted) Blackhawk is struck by a stirrup falling off the pommel of a western style saddle being adjusted. The impact sets off the round in the chamber under the hammer. Carrying the gun with a loaded chamber in firing position is negligent. The falling stirrup was an accident. Does negligent HANDLING require use of hands at the time of discharge?

Here's one I do not have specific knowledge of. Gun in a house fire. Round in the chamber cooks off. Accident? Negligence?

Define your terms to make the distinction useful to the statisticians and those in the business of minimizing Unintended Discharges of all types, and move on. It is the utility of the definition that makes it worthwhile to classify these UDs as ADs or NDs.

Lost Sheep
 
Beentown dont beat your self up over it,It could have happen to any one of us.As you said it went down range no one was seriously hurt or killed.Get back on the saddle so to speak and back to basics.
 
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I find it very odd that anyone would keep their finger on the trigger while attempting to engage the safety. Odd, very odd.
 
we're always blessed when a mistake ends up with nothing more than a scratched finger ... was at the range Sunday with a friend .. I had my 686+ in my hand, empty, cylinder open, when he asked me a question .. I turned to answer and the muzzle headed towards him at the same time ... the range officer was nearby and yelled watch your muzzle ... boy was I embarassed, but goes to show that when guns are involved, constant focus is the only way to go ... no danger, of course, but in two minutes it would have been loaded ...
 
Hook686 I find it very odd that anyone would keep their finger on the trigger while attempting to engage the safety. Odd, very odd.
Click to expand...

Actually read the post and you will see that it was not odd. I had my finger indexed above the trigger. When my thumb slipped off of the safety my trigger finger hit the trigger.

After my thumb slipped off the safety my trigger finger musta hit. I kept the firearm pointed down range and this is what we walked away with:
Click to expand...

My finger was indexed but slipped of due to oil and pressure i was using trying to get the safety/decocker down.
Click to expand...

Hope that helps,

Beentown
 
This is why I never shoot with anyone else except at a designated range (hunting trips aside). When you're in a more or less uncontrolled environment, it's all too easy for everyone to get too casual and create a potentially dangerous situation.
 
I'm no expert, but it appears to me that there were two acts of negligence here:

First, choosing to shoot in the environment where non-shooting family were present and able to get in the line of fire;

Second, fiddling with the decocker with your finger in a position where it could pull the trigger.

I'm glad you and your family are safe.
 
Actually she was a shooter:( She was talking to her fiance. We were shooting one at a time.

It is hard to describe what I was doing with my hand at the moment...ugh...may post a pics to show later.

Thanks for the well wishes towards us. I am really glad 20 years of handgun shooting has pounded keeping all firearms pointed down range in my head to where I really don't even think about it...just happens... I have a feeling I will be thinking about it more. I am going to be worse than a reformed smoker.

Safe shooting,

Beentown
 
Good job on a difficult situation. It's never ideal to divide your attention but sometimes it's difficult to avoid.

I've been surprised by a gun going off in my hands twice. The first was in my grandparent's living room. I was about ten years old and I had a Crossman pellet gun resembling a Colt Python. It had a stupid cross-bolt safety and I was dry-firing it against the safety while aiming at an alarm clock. I had also been cocking it, taking off the safety, re-engaging the safety and then de-cocking it. Then I went back to dry-firing. I had done this several times and eventually the gun fired when I went back to "dry" firing. I had evidently gotten distracted somewhere in my drill and forgot where I was. I learned several valuable lessons that day and the only harm was to the lucite shroud on the clock face.

The second time was on an Army firing range. As part of my training, I had to qualify with a .38 revolver. The weapon I was issued for the day was a shot-out S&W that would bind up when fired double action. I didn't want to say anything since it would likely mean that I would have to come out the next day with those who failed to qualify. I resorted to thumb cocking and firing single action. They taught us to point the gun 'up and down range' and take up the slack in the trigger as the weapon came down to the line of sight. When done properly, they said, the gun will fire just as the sights line up.

About halfway through the course of fire, I had a lapse in concentration and started to 'take up the slack' as instructed. The weapon fired at about a 15 degree angle, launching one somewhere into lower Alabama.

I'm sure an 'expert' will pipe up shortly and disagree with everything I say next but there are only a few things I would have done differently in your situation. I would have immediately taken my finger out of the trigger guard and lowered the weapon, pointing it at the dirt 5-6 feet in front of the firing line. Once I had addressed the person walking in front of the firing line and stopped them, I would have then either resumed firing or been able to devote my entire attention to de-cocking and clearing the weapon.
 
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