First Round Flyers - What The...?
- Thread starter random guy
- Start date
Onward Allusion
New member
Dunno, I'm the opposite. First shot almost always dead on as long as the pistol's been sighted in previously. Dead on meaning 10x.
From there the group starts opening up slightly. In my experience a cold barrel on a pistol has zero impact at the distances I shoot - 10 to 15 yards. Rifles are a different story, but it probably as more to do with distance.
From there the group starts opening up slightly. In my experience a cold barrel on a pistol has zero impact at the distances I shoot - 10 to 15 yards. Rifles are a different story, but it probably as more to do with distance.
It has been a long recognized fact that using a Ransom Rest, the first round from a semi auto often lands in a slightly different place than the rest of the rounds.
I know this often happens with service class tilt barrel (Browning) lockup. I'm not sure how often it happens with fixed barrel pistols, or other type of actions.
It does not happen with revolvers in the machine rest, so, we kind of just have to assume that it's because of the way the semi auto mechanism works, being just enough different when a person loads the chamber than when the gun does it itself.
Some pistols never will be laser guided tack drivers no matter what is done.
I know this often happens with service class tilt barrel (Browning) lockup. I'm not sure how often it happens with fixed barrel pistols, or other type of actions.
It does not happen with revolvers in the machine rest, so, we kind of just have to assume that it's because of the way the semi auto mechanism works, being just enough different when a person loads the chamber than when the gun does it itself.
Some pistols never will be laser guided tack drivers no matter what is done.
I cannot speak to your particular M&P 40, but here are some examples of two that I own. The first is an M&P 40 Pro Series (1st gen), and the second is an M&P 40 m2.0. Pic #1 shows that the first shot on a cold day was indeed dead on target, but does not show that the remaining shots of the day were also POA/POI. Pic #2 shows a 25-yard group shot from a cold pistol with POA/POI as expected. I cannot say that I've noticed any 1st shot deviation from any of my M&Ps, but I'm sure it could happen.
1st shot at 15 yards:
A 25-yard 2.25" group with a cold M&P:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=japNDa82YnY
ShootistPRS
New member
The thing I would try is to look very closely at your grip. Might it be that your hand is more relaxed until you fire the pistol once? After the first shot you tighten your grip to aid in recoil management and the rest of your shots are lower.
You're anticipating the recoil. and pushing the trigger .
Go here. http://www.targetshooting.ca/docs/Pistol_Shot_Analysis.pdf
Go here. http://www.targetshooting.ca/docs/Pistol_Shot_Analysis.pdf
Another FWIW: Many years ago, when I could remember being a young man, I did some informal competition shooting with friends and others. It was common practice to allow one or two "fouling shots" before scores counted.
Don't remember any particular discussion of flyers associated with it, though. I've had flyers on first shots and flyers on tenth shots.
Don't know the physics of it, though, if any.
Don't remember any particular discussion of flyers associated with it, though. I've had flyers on first shots and flyers on tenth shots.
Don't know the physics of it, though, if any.
ShootistPRS
New member
I have seen a lot of (most) falling plate shooters make good hits on the first plate, a low hit on the second and bury the next four rounds into the frame below the plates. This happens because recoil affects their grip. Each time they fire the grip tightens and the round goes low.
The way I got around this problem was to develop a "killer" grip on my gun. It was so different that I had to adjust my sights for the lower point of impact. Starting out with a grip so tight it can't be any tighter gives better control of recoil and keeps me on target through all six plates.
The way I got around this problem was to develop a "killer" grip on my gun. It was so different that I had to adjust my sights for the lower point of impact. Starting out with a grip so tight it can't be any tighter gives better control of recoil and keeps me on target through all six plates.
Walt Sherrill
New member
The next time at the range, fire your first shot off target, so that the first shot you take ON TARGET has been loaded by gun action. Then, see if there's a difference with those first shots going astray...
With some guns, it does seem to make a difference, and as one or two have noted, manually loading the first round doesn't cause the barrel to lock up the same as one loaded by firing a prior shot. It may depend on just how well-fit and tight the gun is... with really well-fitted guns showing less variance.
The DA/SA transition also throws some folks off, but that clearly isn't the case with an M&P .40.
With some guns, it does seem to make a difference, and as one or two have noted, manually loading the first round doesn't cause the barrel to lock up the same as one loaded by firing a prior shot. It may depend on just how well-fit and tight the gun is... with really well-fitted guns showing less variance.
The DA/SA transition also throws some folks off, but that clearly isn't the case with an M&P .40.
the duck of death
New member
"QUOTE"
The next time at the range, fire your first shot off target, so that the first shot you take ON TARGET has been loaded by gun action.
+1
The next time at the range, fire your first shot off target, so that the first shot you take ON TARGET has been loaded by gun action.
+1
random guy
New member
Thanks to all for your thoughts and advice. I'll definitely be paying more attention to my grip and trigger finger pressure on future range trips. I'll also try some round 2-6 groups and maybe experiment with some different ways of resting the gun. I'll let you know how it goes, if it's not too ugly.
I think the 2-6 rd groups are definitely a good idea. If it is a lockup issue that should isolate it. If it's a technique issue that comes into play after the first shot it might isolate that too.
And again when it comes to your fundamentals snap caps or dummy rounds can be telling. If you don't have those handy do the following. Insert mag, chamber a round, drop the mag. Fire a round. Then rack the slide to cock the striker and perform a dry fire. Alternate back and forth. You can sometimes catch yourself doing something you didn't realize you were doing. Snap caps works better for me for that, but I've found the above drill works too. You could try a one hole drill as well for good measure, but frankly with how you're shooting currently (and by that I mean you're still shooting quite well) I'm not sure the issue would be visible at the typical distance of a one hole drill. That usually catches more pronounced user errors.
And again when it comes to your fundamentals snap caps or dummy rounds can be telling. If you don't have those handy do the following. Insert mag, chamber a round, drop the mag. Fire a round. Then rack the slide to cock the striker and perform a dry fire. Alternate back and forth. You can sometimes catch yourself doing something you didn't realize you were doing. Snap caps works better for me for that, but I've found the above drill works too. You could try a one hole drill as well for good measure, but frankly with how you're shooting currently (and by that I mean you're still shooting quite well) I'm not sure the issue would be visible at the typical distance of a one hole drill. That usually catches more pronounced user errors.