First Round Flyers - What The...?

R

random guy

New member
Some of my pistols never find the right load, or operator, to turn them into laser guided tack driving precision instruments. Others show great promise but suffer from first round flyers which seem to be a common curse.

I'm getting nice sub inch 4 out of 5 shot clusters (50ft) but with the first hand-chambered round going high and left.

There are probably multiple causes for this but I've not known of anyone who tried to cure it. Surely top target pistol smiths have done so though. Does anyone have insight into common causes and cures?
 
When it comes to pistols, the person pressing the trigger is far and away the biggest factor. Have you tried other shooters?
 
With long guns, many will.do fouling shot on cleaned gun. I don't know about handguns. But very common in rifles. I have seen 4 shots off.


Some guns get dirty sooner too.
 
Definitely possible in many cases but in this one the barrel was well warmed up before I shot groups and hasn't been clean since I brought it home from the LGS. :o I did clean it last night though.

To be clear, this is not the first shot in a clean or cold gun. Just the first round after reloading. It's a well known thing...I just don't know WHY.
 
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TunnelRat When it comes to pistols, the person pressing the trigger is far and away the biggest factor. Have you tried other shooters?
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My club is not much on competition and most shooting there are happy to knock down rather large steel plates.

I will be on the lookout for anyone who appears to know what they're doing though.

There are some very serious rifle shooters but they kid me about playing with baby guns. I don't think they'd be much help.
 
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I find this interesting because at the beginning I'm close to being a dead eye shooter but after a few shots I wander. Sometimes I stay in 3" group, sometime I'm wild like 6-7".

I think it's fatigue from reports.
 
It's a well known thing...I just don't know WHY.
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The mechanical dynamic of the loading cycle settles in when the
pistol starts loading itself. No matter how you try, the slide force
exerted during manual loading will not equal that of the firing cycle,
hence the first round flyers.

Cheers,
p_r
 
I think it's fatigue from reports.
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Just had a homework flashback. :eek:

Yeah there is a physical conditioning aspect to shooting well. My own endurance to repeated blasts and repeated concentration is not really high but I'm good for a while. Some days the nerves and eyes just aren't there right from the start. Other days the lighting is perfect and I have the eyes of a Falcon. A 55 year old Falcon but still...
 
The mechanical dynamic of the loading cycle settles in when the
pistol starts loading itself. No matter how you try, the slide force
exerted during manual loading will not equal that of the firing cycle,
hence the first round flyers.

Cheers,
p_r
Click to expand...

Yep. I'm thinking Bullseye shooters and smiths must address this somehow. If the flyer is predictable enough, you could hold for it? I was hoping for a real fix though.
 
By reports I meant noise and concussion.

Yes I wore ear protection and random guy nailed it.

I'm now 67 and hadn't gone to the ranges anymore but I know my pistol and I had plenty practice.
 
The mechanical dynamic of the loading cycle settles in when the
pistol starts loading itself. No matter how you try, the slide force
exerted during manual loading will not equal that of the firing cycle,
hence the first round flyers.
Click to expand...

I've shot plenty of pistols and been able to get good hits on the first shot.

What pistol are we talking about and how much of a flyer?
 
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Hits on what? Obviously I hit the target. I just missed the 3/4" group. I'd really like to have that first shot in the group.

It's a S&W M&P 40. Sometimes the flyer is an inch out. Yesterday with a different load there were 4 in under an inch and the flyer about 3 inches out. High and left.
 
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I'd try to eliminate the shooter as much as possible. Usually flyers are the shooter. You could try shooting it from bags or a rest if available and that might help. Assuming the same ammunition, the same degree of fouling, and not a cold bore shot (and frankly for a pistol caliber at 50 ft idk how much an impact bore temp is really going to have) it would be something very odd mechanically if it isn't the shooter. You could try mixing in some snap caps to see if that shows any issues with trigger manipulation as you go through the magazine (you might be slightly anticipating the shots following the first and pulling slightly systemically). I get what pack_rat is saying but I've never seen that phenomenon materialize in pistols shooting, even out to 100 yds. But hey anything's possible I guess.
 
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I haven't ruled out myself as the cause. I think my sight picture and trigger control are good but I'll try to pay more attention to other elements.
 
FWIW it's not exactly like 1 1/16" at 50 ft is bad. That's still pretty impressive. You're talking 1.6" at 25 yds if I extrapolate out to that distance. Honestly that's well within and frankly exceeding any accuracy spec from S&W (and most other manufacturers too).
 
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Nope, it's 1 and 11/16 with the flyer. So yeah, it still extrapolates to a fairly decent group but could indicate much more potential. We'll see.
 
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