Zhillsauditor
New member
A grizzly bear is another name for the North American Brown Bear. I think you meant Black Bear.
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First revolver purchase.
- Thread starter Wheellock
- Start date
No, I meant north american Grizzly ....vs Alaskan Brown Bear ....not the Black Bear - 3 very different animals.../ I'm not trying to be a biologist ...but the Grizzly is very different from a typical Brown Bear in Alazka. I've lived and hiked and hunted big game in both Montana and Alaska a lot ...and killed lots of Black Bear...and only one Montana Grizzly ...and never an Alaskan Brown bear....( all with rifles .30-40 Krag or a .30-06 ..)...and while I did carry
a .357 handgun in Montana for protection in the woods / I'd want a .44 mag in Alaska...( fishing, or hunting ).
In my opinion:
Yes, a .357 mag is a decent weapon on a Black Bear (maybe 300 lbs)...
marginal on a Grizzly ( as in Nortwestern Montana - maybe 600 lbs )...
and puny on an Alaskan Brown Bear..( like in Kodiak, AK - where a lot of them are over 1,000 lbs ) where the Alaskan Brown bear are significantly bigger than a typical Northwestern Montana Grizzly...
a .357 handgun in Montana for protection in the woods / I'd want a .44 mag in Alaska...( fishing, or hunting ).
In my opinion:
Yes, a .357 mag is a decent weapon on a Black Bear (maybe 300 lbs)...
marginal on a Grizzly ( as in Nortwestern Montana - maybe 600 lbs )...
and puny on an Alaskan Brown Bear..( like in Kodiak, AK - where a lot of them are over 1,000 lbs ) where the Alaskan Brown bear are significantly bigger than a typical Northwestern Montana Grizzly...
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Lost Sheep
New member
Bear talk is not on the agenda
Defense against bears is way off-thread.
But just for clarity
Bears are mammals of the family Ursidae.
Black bears are species Ursus Americanus and found almost everywhere.
Brown bears are species Ursus Arctos and found across Eurasia and North America
Subspecies of the Brown Bear
are:
Ursus Arctos horribilis
also known as the silvertip bear, the grizzly, or the North American brown bear. Commonly found in the Alaskan interior and across Canada and the U.S.
Ursus Arctos middendorffi), also known as the Kodiak brown bear or the Alaskan grizzly bear or American brown bear and Coastal Brown Bears. These are the big ones. Largely because they are so well fed on salmon. Interior bears have to work harder for their protein.
They are ALL very hard to stop with any handgun. 12 gauge with Brennekke slugs or 300 Winchester Magnum is considered to be minimal. But remember, STOPPING one who has decided to hurt you is a far different task than HUNTING one.
Now, back to the original thread.
Lost Sheep
Defense against bears is way off-thread.
But just for clarity
Bears are mammals of the family Ursidae.
Black bears are species Ursus Americanus and found almost everywhere.
Brown bears are species Ursus Arctos and found across Eurasia and North America
Subspecies of the Brown Bear
are:
Ursus Arctos horribilis
also known as the silvertip bear, the grizzly, or the North American brown bear. Commonly found in the Alaskan interior and across Canada and the U.S.
Ursus Arctos middendorffi), also known as the Kodiak brown bear or the Alaskan grizzly bear or American brown bear and Coastal Brown Bears. These are the big ones. Largely because they are so well fed on salmon. Interior bears have to work harder for their protein.
They are ALL very hard to stop with any handgun. 12 gauge with Brennekke slugs or 300 Winchester Magnum is considered to be minimal. But remember, STOPPING one who has decided to hurt you is a far different task than HUNTING one.
Now, back to the original thread.
Lost Sheep
Yes, back to the original thread. I write this for the OP and again out of concern for the OP:
The OP is considering a .357 Magnum for home and carry defense.
It is not clear if the OP is strong and very well-practiced using this round.
I shoot .357 mag and .38 special ( not +) in my Python. I do not feel sufficiently capable of .357 for self defense situations and I probably never will be up to it (I'm over 60 and not that quick or strong, and not of great eyesight).
But I have read so many remarks against .357 for self defense that it struck me as a bold choice for the OP's first defense weapon even if the OP is quick, strong and can see. And from what I have read, its a bad choice for anyone.
Here are two quotes from just one source:
"The sound of a .357 going off is really tremendously loud, even when wearing ear protection. Setting off a .357 indoors without ear protection would most certainly do damage to ones hearing which could be permanent."
"A normal 158g .357 hollow point can penetrate about a yard in ballistic gelatin." So I guess it will pass through a human (yes of course you have to be aware of what's behind - but a lapse of awareness can happen.
"Control is a concern with the .357 Magnum... Follow-up shots could be difficult or at least slower as the shooter struggles to regain control of the gun after the recoil."
Just saying. Sounds to me like a bad choice for a first defense weapon. Of course, it can be loaded with .38 special hollow points.
The OP is considering a .357 Magnum for home and carry defense.
It is not clear if the OP is strong and very well-practiced using this round.
I shoot .357 mag and .38 special ( not +) in my Python. I do not feel sufficiently capable of .357 for self defense situations and I probably never will be up to it (I'm over 60 and not that quick or strong, and not of great eyesight).
But I have read so many remarks against .357 for self defense that it struck me as a bold choice for the OP's first defense weapon even if the OP is quick, strong and can see. And from what I have read, its a bad choice for anyone.
Here are two quotes from just one source:
"The sound of a .357 going off is really tremendously loud, even when wearing ear protection. Setting off a .357 indoors without ear protection would most certainly do damage to ones hearing which could be permanent."
"A normal 158g .357 hollow point can penetrate about a yard in ballistic gelatin." So I guess it will pass through a human (yes of course you have to be aware of what's behind - but a lapse of awareness can happen.
"Control is a concern with the .357 Magnum... Follow-up shots could be difficult or at least slower as the shooter struggles to regain control of the gun after the recoil."
Just saying. Sounds to me like a bad choice for a first defense weapon. Of course, it can be loaded with .38 special hollow points.
Yes, back to the original thread. I write this for the OP and again out of concern for the OP:
The OP is considering a .357 Magnum for home and carry defense.
It is not clear if the OP is strong and very well-practiced using this round.
I shoot .357 mag and .38 special ( not +) in my Python. I do not feel sufficiently capable of .357 for self defense situations and I probably never will be up to it (I'm over 60 and not that quick or strong, and not of great eyesight).
But I have read so many remarks against .357 for self defense that it struck me as a bold choice for the OP's first defense weapon even if the OP is quick, strong and can see. And from what I have read, its a bad choice for anyone.
Here are two quotes from just one source:
"The sound of a .357 going off is really tremendously loud, even when wearing ear protection. Setting off a .357 indoors without ear protection would most certainly do damage to ones hearing which could be permanent."
"A normal 158g .357 hollow point can penetrate about a yard in ballistic gelatin." So I guess it will pass through a human (yes of course you have to be aware of what's behind - but a lapse of awareness can happen.
"Control is a concern with the .357 Magnum... Follow-up shots could be difficult or at least slower as the shooter struggles to regain control of the gun after the recoil."
Just saying. Sounds to me like a bad choice for a first defense weapon. Of course, it can be loaded with .38 special hollow points.
While I do use .38+P in my .357mag revolvers for CCW or home defense, there is quite a bit here that needs a response. If you said that .38+P was a better round for self-defense, I'd probably agree with you. However, saying that .357mag is a bad choice, I have to disagree.
Sure, the sound levels of the .357mag indoors can cause hearing damage. However, any handgun shot indoors is sufficiently loud to cause permanent hearing damage. .357mag is among the loudest self defense calibers, and this is among the reasons I choose .38+P, don't believe for a second that this issue is limited to .357mag (and if I'm in a self-defense situation, risking some hearing damage is secondary to having "enough gun").
Control and follow-up shots in a small framed revolver is one of the reasons I go .38 in most of my J-frame sized revolvers (the smallest I'd go in a .357mag that I plan to shoot magnums out of is my 26oz Rossi 461 which is sized about halfway between a J-frame and K-frame). However, out of a medium framed revolver, I'd have few concerns with follow-up shot speed with moderately loaded .357mag rounds (i.e. most rounds made for the range and self-defense), though I would generally avoid hunting rounds.
As for over penetration potential, that is there with any round. I saw a ballistic test on YouTube where a FMJ and flat nose .380ACP exited the ballistic gelatin. One reason I do go with .38+P for home defense is over penetration potential, however, with careful ammo selection I wouldn't worry too much about it.
If you look at the chart of FBI test results at the link, you'll see in unclothed gelatin, most of the tested loads were in the 15-16" range, and clothed most ranged from 12-20". When you consider that the FBI considers the minimum acceptable penetration to be 12", if you consider the possibility that you'll need a side shot, and you consider the chances you may hit bone which can stop a bullet or change its direction, I wouldn't worry about most of these rounds over penetrating (in the clothed gelatin tests, the only tested load that would concern me is the 158gr HydraShok). Further, with .38spl and +P you need to carefully select your ammo for another reason- the potential for under penetration, and if you use a 2" barrel snub, the possibility that the hollowpoint won't expand.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/357magnum.htm
While, all that said above is about the .357mag round, the fact that you are talking about .357mag handguns makes me disagree even more strongly. The fact that a .357mag can shoot .38spl makes a medium frame .357mag revolver just about the perfect gun for someone to start on. That way, they can shoot everything from low recoiling .38spl wadcutters and other target rounds at the range while learning, through full power 180gr+ .357mag hunting rounds once they are used to it should they need them. A K-frame might be a bit uncomfortable with the hunting rounds, but once the owner has some experience, they can handle .357mag rounds made for defensive use quite well.
Finally, you mention strength several times in your posts, but I don't understand why. Strength has virtually nothing to do with ability to handle recoil.
The test is what works in your hands the best....and I own and shoot a lot of S&W revolvers in .357 mag because I like them a lot ..
A K frame S&W - in a 4" - like a model 19 or 66 ...of which I have four ...are easy guns to run tactical drills with ...( double taps, or triple taps out of a holster with 158gr Montana Gold JHP's) and I have no problem executing those double or triple taps, even in a K frame, out of a holster, in under 4 sec ( and I'm not lightning quick ) and keeping them center mass at least out to 30 Feet.....now if I switch to an N frame..model 27 in a 4" - the gun is a little heavier ...I can shave that time to under 3 sec consistently and still keep all shots center mass.
Follow up shots with a K frame or an N frame....are just not that difficult if the gun fits your hands. I'm over 60 yrs old as well....but the .357 mag is a caliber I like / and I practice with it quite a bit - even though 1911's are my primary defense guns / a S&W model 66 4" is a solid nightstand gun for me.
If I go to a shorter barrel ..like a 2 1/2" in a model 66 (K Frame ) I can make my 4 sec time ...but beyond 21 Feet....my groups tend to get a little ragged...because of the shorter sight plane probably / but also because the weight of the gun becomes a bigger factor ...with the lighter gun jumping around a little too much to suit me....which to me, makes the K frame 4" a much better defensive or tactical weapon.....
Go to a range and rent some revolvers.....shoot them from the low ready ...and evaluate your competency level with each model ...and evaluate what you like for triggers, barrel length, how much they jump around..your confidence level with each platform. Push yourself for a time standard - that fits your skill and safety level...and see what works best for you / knowing that when you have your own gun -you'll hopefully practice with it weekly ..and get better hopefully.
A K frame S&W - in a 4" - like a model 19 or 66 ...of which I have four ...are easy guns to run tactical drills with ...( double taps, or triple taps out of a holster with 158gr Montana Gold JHP's) and I have no problem executing those double or triple taps, even in a K frame, out of a holster, in under 4 sec ( and I'm not lightning quick ) and keeping them center mass at least out to 30 Feet.....now if I switch to an N frame..model 27 in a 4" - the gun is a little heavier ...I can shave that time to under 3 sec consistently and still keep all shots center mass.
Follow up shots with a K frame or an N frame....are just not that difficult if the gun fits your hands. I'm over 60 yrs old as well....but the .357 mag is a caliber I like / and I practice with it quite a bit - even though 1911's are my primary defense guns / a S&W model 66 4" is a solid nightstand gun for me.
If I go to a shorter barrel ..like a 2 1/2" in a model 66 (K Frame ) I can make my 4 sec time ...but beyond 21 Feet....my groups tend to get a little ragged...because of the shorter sight plane probably / but also because the weight of the gun becomes a bigger factor ...with the lighter gun jumping around a little too much to suit me....which to me, makes the K frame 4" a much better defensive or tactical weapon.....
Go to a range and rent some revolvers.....shoot them from the low ready ...and evaluate your competency level with each model ...and evaluate what you like for triggers, barrel length, how much they jump around..your confidence level with each platform. Push yourself for a time standard - that fits your skill and safety level...and see what works best for you / knowing that when you have your own gun -you'll hopefully practice with it weekly ..and get better hopefully.
Thank you Chaim for all that information.
As is widely recognized getting a revolver a .357 magnum is nice for the variety of ammunition to use.
Perhaps this needs to be another thread. I'm still thinking .357 Magnum ammunition is just (dare I say it?) "overkill" for SD against thin hide dangerous humans.
My SD guns are 9mm and .45 mm semi-automatics and I "play" with a revolver, the Python, but mostly use 38 Special and try 357 Magnum. I still am not good enough with a DA trigger on "quick reaction" shooting and not good with 357 magnum loads. In a SD situation I would do better with the 9mm for accurate placement in quick reaction. Obviously this will vary with the skill of the shooter. But I suspect the larger number of people bearing guns for self defense are also not ready for Magnum loads.
I was concerned about the OP mentioning getting a 357 Magnum gun and thinking (without evidence) he or she is a novice and expecting to load 357 magnums and be ready for self defense. It did not seem wise.
As is widely recognized getting a revolver a .357 magnum is nice for the variety of ammunition to use.
Perhaps this needs to be another thread. I'm still thinking .357 Magnum ammunition is just (dare I say it?) "overkill" for SD against thin hide dangerous humans.
My SD guns are 9mm and .45 mm semi-automatics and I "play" with a revolver, the Python, but mostly use 38 Special and try 357 Magnum. I still am not good enough with a DA trigger on "quick reaction" shooting and not good with 357 magnum loads. In a SD situation I would do better with the 9mm for accurate placement in quick reaction. Obviously this will vary with the skill of the shooter. But I suspect the larger number of people bearing guns for self defense are also not ready for Magnum loads.
I was concerned about the OP mentioning getting a 357 Magnum gun and thinking (without evidence) he or she is a novice and expecting to load 357 magnums and be ready for self defense. It did not seem wise.
Chuckusaret
Moderator
"The sound of a .357 going off is really tremendously loud, even when wearing ear protection. Setting off a .357 indoors without ear protection would most certainly do damage to ones hearing which could be permanent.
First of all in the heat of an engagement, the average person does not hear the report of the weapon, all senses are tuned to eliminating the threat. I would much rather suffer a hearing loss than to be beat or shot by the bad guy.
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A J-frame snubbie is not an easy revolver to start on.
It was my second after I started with a Ruger SA 10.5" 44 mag! It was a 640 357 mag!
That was seriously the way I did things, but maybe not the best way.
IMO, the people suggesting something like a S&W 13 or 65 3" are heading you the right way. These could be a person's main CCW and never be a bad choice. Especially loaded with 38 Spcl Gold Dots and then 357 Gold Dot's when you get the hang of them. I'm leaning toward the S&W K frame group because they have:
- Most have excellent triggers out of the box
- There are so many grip choices that you have to be able to find good CCW grips! If not, a custom grip maker can surely fit them to you right!
- 3" is a std barrel length. To me, that is short enough to CCW, but long enough to shoot fast.
- Holster choice - Every holster company, almost, makes leather/kydex for this gun.
If you really want a snubbie, I would go to a concealed hammer model in SS. The scandium Smiths are a handful!
Personally, I'm not sure why the LCR appeals to some people. I just looked at their website and liked the 3" Talo GP100!
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I understand the sentiment that a .357 mag revolver may be a little bit of an "overkill" for a defensive weapon...but if the OP wants a revolver as a defensive weapon ...at least a gun chambered in .357 mag gives him the option of shooting .38 spl or .357 mag..../ about the only other widely available choice in a revolver would be a gun chambered in .38 spl ....so why not have a gun that will shoot both calibers.
....but in the case of a gun like a K frame S&W revolver, in my view, its also a gun that a shooter can grow into ...and develop their expertise...by shooting it with .38 spl ...and some .357 mag ...and get some time with the gun....
...and in general, I think a K ( or an L or N frame S&W --- or a Colt Python if he wants to go there ) in a .357 mag is probably a gun that he or she will keep long term....where the LCR stikes me as a short term choice...
....but in the case of a gun like a K frame S&W revolver, in my view, its also a gun that a shooter can grow into ...and develop their expertise...by shooting it with .38 spl ...and some .357 mag ...and get some time with the gun....
...and in general, I think a K ( or an L or N frame S&W --- or a Colt Python if he wants to go there ) in a .357 mag is probably a gun that he or she will keep long term....where the LCR stikes me as a short term choice...
BigJimP - Yes I agree. I'm coming from semi auto looking for new challenges in DA trigger. I forgot to consider what's available in revolvers so certainly a first revolver 357 magnum is a great choice. I also forgot that this Python 357 is my first (since a .22 four decades ago).
I'm enjoying my 357 and the Python was not my choice but it was available. The 6 in. that it is I do find somewhat front heavy for my arm strength and I have coming in a barely used 586-3, 4 in. The challenge of mastering 357 is fun. And I wonder if I didn't have a challenge, shooting would not be so engaging.
I'm enjoying my 357 and the Python was not my choice but it was available. The 6 in. that it is I do find somewhat front heavy for my arm strength and I have coming in a barely used 586-3, 4 in. The challenge of mastering 357 is fun. And I wonder if I didn't have a challenge, shooting would not be so engaging.
Stephanie B
New member
If you don't mind fixed sights, the Aussie trade-in S&W Model 10s from Bud's Gun Shop seem to be nice. A friend and I each got one; he got a Model 10-10, I got a 10-11. Both shoot pretty much to point-of-aim with generic .38 Special loads. Some are cosmetically rougher than others, it looked as though the cop who had carried his had never cleaned it, while the one I got had been sort of cared for.
?Neither one of us expected much for a sub-$300 gun. We've been pleasantly surprised.
?Neither one of us expected much for a sub-$300 gun. We've been pleasantly surprised.
Sure Mollymomo, .... that makes sense....
when you've been in this hobby as long as I have - give or take 50+ yrs...it'll be easier to evaluate what you like best / what fits your hands the best...and be able to evaluate your best options for Defense / or just range fun.
Like you - I spend a lot of range time with semi-autos as well ( primarily 1911's ) ...where the gun I shoot the most - is a well made 1911, a 5" gun, all stainless in 9mm...and I will put 5 or 6 boxes a week thru that gun ..../ its great practice for my primary carry gun which is a 5" 1911 in .45 acp - but S&W revolvers were some of the first guns I loved when I was just a kid ...and shot them a lot in those days --- and I still like them as a "nightstand" gun or a "desk gun" ..and some range days when I just want to shoot some of my revolvers...I might take a S&W model 19 4" , a model 27 4" and maybe my Freedom Arms single action 4 3/4" all in .357 mag ...just for the heck of it. I have big hands / and am big enough at 6'5" and 290 lbs that shooting my reloads ( all 158 gr bullets in .357 mag ) is not that big a deal in a good steel gun ...
...but everybody's different...some of my buddies think its nuts.../ waste of range time...some of my buddies will only shoot the same gun they carry ...that's all they want to do / nothing else makes sense to them. I want to be competent ...in the one in a gazillion chance something bad happens and I need a gun ...but mostly, I shoot as a hobby !
To me, it would be way to boring to just shoot one kind of gun all the time...but my collection has common denominators ...several 1911's 4" and
5" guns in 9mm, .40S&W and .45 acp ..../ several Sig Sauers...226's and 239's in 9mm or .40 S&W .../ about 18 S&W revolvers...mod 19's, 27's, 28's, 66's, 686's in .357 mag ....and mod 29's, 629's in .44 mag ...and some in .22 ( 617 and mod 18's )...and one single action revolver from Freedom Arms that is my new favorite toy in .357 mag ...( its new, so only 6 months old ) and I like shooting it a lot....
But there is just no -- one answer for any of this stuff - when someone asks with semi-auto should I get, which revolver, which caliber...or whatever...its different for all of us.../ just like, while I really like the looks of a Colt Python, I don't own one ...because in rapid fire - the grips on the colt let the gun get away from me.../ and not to be critical but in DA, I just prefer the S&W trigger ...and the grips on the S&W just fit me better ( and S&W revolvers - even the model 27 - which I think is comparable in quality to the Python - is at least several hundred dollars cheaper these days !
when you've been in this hobby as long as I have - give or take 50+ yrs...it'll be easier to evaluate what you like best / what fits your hands the best...and be able to evaluate your best options for Defense / or just range fun.
Like you - I spend a lot of range time with semi-autos as well ( primarily 1911's ) ...where the gun I shoot the most - is a well made 1911, a 5" gun, all stainless in 9mm...and I will put 5 or 6 boxes a week thru that gun ..../ its great practice for my primary carry gun which is a 5" 1911 in .45 acp - but S&W revolvers were some of the first guns I loved when I was just a kid ...and shot them a lot in those days --- and I still like them as a "nightstand" gun or a "desk gun" ..and some range days when I just want to shoot some of my revolvers...I might take a S&W model 19 4" , a model 27 4" and maybe my Freedom Arms single action 4 3/4" all in .357 mag ...just for the heck of it. I have big hands / and am big enough at 6'5" and 290 lbs that shooting my reloads ( all 158 gr bullets in .357 mag ) is not that big a deal in a good steel gun ...
...but everybody's different...some of my buddies think its nuts.../ waste of range time...some of my buddies will only shoot the same gun they carry ...that's all they want to do / nothing else makes sense to them. I want to be competent ...in the one in a gazillion chance something bad happens and I need a gun ...but mostly, I shoot as a hobby !
To me, it would be way to boring to just shoot one kind of gun all the time...but my collection has common denominators ...several 1911's 4" and
5" guns in 9mm, .40S&W and .45 acp ..../ several Sig Sauers...226's and 239's in 9mm or .40 S&W .../ about 18 S&W revolvers...mod 19's, 27's, 28's, 66's, 686's in .357 mag ....and mod 29's, 629's in .44 mag ...and some in .22 ( 617 and mod 18's )...and one single action revolver from Freedom Arms that is my new favorite toy in .357 mag ...( its new, so only 6 months old ) and I like shooting it a lot....
But there is just no -- one answer for any of this stuff - when someone asks with semi-auto should I get, which revolver, which caliber...or whatever...its different for all of us.../ just like, while I really like the looks of a Colt Python, I don't own one ...because in rapid fire - the grips on the colt let the gun get away from me.../ and not to be critical but in DA, I just prefer the S&W trigger ...and the grips on the S&W just fit me better ( and S&W revolvers - even the model 27 - which I think is comparable in quality to the Python - is at least several hundred dollars cheaper these days !
Like the OP maybe, BigJimP, I remember browsing for picking my first gun (aside from what my deceased father left behind) and I thought that I will just get one and be the master of it. Well that idea didn't last long! I started with a self defense motive now I'm really more driven to excel in my own small way at markmanship. But this came rather late in my life to do well. My first 1911 sits unused. And now I do not find my other 1911's fun. Revolvers are very appealing and a challenge.
But back to the OP. just get something. I'm sure its just the beginning of a journey of changes.
But back to the OP. just get something. I'm sure its just the beginning of a journey of changes.