First Range Day with M1A-I shot HORRIBLE!

J

JRiggs

New member
I really hope its me and not the rifle. I admit, I'm new to shooting rifles without scopes. Im in the Air Force and our M-16 Qual. is only 25 yards- I score expert but again, its only a 25 yard course. I took the M1A out, set a target out to 100 yards. It took about 20 rounds before I could even hit the target. I even did the standard eight clicks from the bottom battle sight zero, and centered the elevation before firing. I finally went to 12 clicks and started hitting the bottom of the target. I then went up five more clicks and hit bullseye twice out of my 3 shot string. I fired 3 more rounds and they were at the bottom again, with about a 5 inch spread.

I do think my sight picture was bad, I was putting the entire front sight in the peep, not just the tip and the guards. This may have something to do with it. For a rest all I had was an old pillow to lay the gun over, so that wasnt rock solid either. I can say one thing, the rifle was 100% reliable. Ammo used was Portugese FNM 81-35. Do I have a rifle problem, or will practice cure me? Thanks!
 
Sounds like it might be the ammo.

I have not used that Portuguese stuff, but I would bet money that is where the problem lies. Since that is cheaper surplus, there is a good chance it is not going to shoot all that well. And I would imagine your accuracy is going to go down a bit from a 25 yard qual course to shooting at 100 yards. In fact I am a little sadened by the fact that you only qual at 25 yards with an m16. That is a little scary.
 
Tell me about it. They really havent taught us all that much. I guess I should feel fortunate, the Navy doesnt get to fire at all. I guess this is why I like to take it upon myself to learn. I really want to master this M1A!
 
El Rojo, the Port is actually quite accurate on the average. My FAL will shoot it into 1.25" groups, and I have a friend who routinely shoots 1/2" groups with his PSS with the Port. I think the trouble is with JRiggs sight picture.

JRiggs, try this: Use targets with a good sized black circle on them. From 100 yards, you could start off with an 8" or 10" circle. Aim so that the top of the front sight jsut touches the bottom of the circle. Make sure that the sight is centered left/right, and again, just touching the circle's bottom. The top of the front sight should be centered in the rear apeture. Focus on the front sight, and press the trigger without moving anything else.

Perhaps have a frined load the rifle for a while, inserting "duds" in order to see if you're flinching.
 
M1A accuracy

Jriggs, I agree with Steve Smith. I suspect operator error(please don't be offended) is the problem. I've never used Port. ammo and would probably recommend sticking to US made ammo. I suggest you practice your sight picture, trigger squeeze, and breath control. You may also be a little intimidated by the larger caliber. This will leave with practice. I also suggest you get a proper bench rest that is more stable than a pillow. Be sure the barrel and the magazine are not touching anything. There are plenty of sources available to you for learning proper benchrest positions. Don't be discouraged. With patience and pratice you will have a lot of fun with your new rifle.
Marshall
 
The previous posters are most likely right...however, if you let someone more experienced shoot it with better ammo and they still can't group there is one other possibility. When I first got my M1A (sold it since) I had the same problem and it turned out the problem was a loose flash supressor. The set screw that held it tight had worked out and the castle nut had come loose.
 
Why in the heck would anyone qualify someone as an expert with a rifle at 25 yards????????? What kind of insane logic is that????? Thank god when I was in the USMC we qualified with the M16 at 200, 300 and 500 yards. bTW, I qualified expert 3 out of the 4 years I was in.
 
I don't think there's a problem with either the gun or the shooter. However, there is something the shooter could have done to make things go easier.

First, whenever you change sights on a gun, try it out on the 25 yard line first. Get the bullets to print on paper and adjust it until you get them in the bullseye. After the gun prints good groups at 25 yards, take it to 100 and try it there. You should be hitting somewhere on the paper and can fine tune it from there.

Going straight to the 100 yard can be very frustrating when you don't have a spotter to call your shots for you. Such is the case as described earlier.
 
I had to send my M1A NM Loaded back to Springfield. The rounds were "grazing" the flash hider! Two months later, I got it back from the Custom Shop. Mine likes 168gr. Federal Gold match ($$) and Georgia Arms re-loads (less $) shoot the same. If I am not mistaken the surplus stuff if 140gr.
 
Steve in PA:

I know its crazy but its not my fault. Remember, this is the Air Force we are talking about here. Im sure the Marine Corps still qualifies people the full distance. I work for Security Forces and we primarily use the Beretta M-9. Needless to say our training with the pistol is MUCH more extensive. The M-16 Qual is using scaled targets at 25 yards. But hey, at least we can fire it for familiarization if nothing else. This is the reason why I need to teach myself to be a better rifle shot.
 
Give yourself and that M1A some time to settle into a good shooter.
I had to put a couple hundred rounds through mine before I was happy with the results. Now my Loaded M1A will shoot in the 1" - 1 1/4" category.

TS
 
Yeah, it's probably not entirely your fault. Along with the ammo recomendations, you might want o try a six o'clock hold. It's easier to obtain a consistant hold / sight picture than a center mass hold.
 
It is easy to screw up shots from standing with that gun.

I was shooting a 200 yard corrected national match course with my M1A and I put one in the dirt in front of the target! I was wondering what in the heck just happened when it became rather apparent. I was getting ready to squeeze off when I did the flinch and anticipate the recoil trick. Not too bright. My goal that day was to break 400. I got a 397! Had I not thrown that one in the dirt, I would have easily made it. That big gun does take some practice.

Now that I reread the thread, that would explain why the rounds are so low. Move that post into the center at the least and maybe even lower like was suggested. I know my M1A shot great right out of the box. I even got MOA accuracy at 200 yards and a 6x scope. I was happy.
 
JRiggs, Imagine this: you are stareing through the sights of your M1A you have the front sights's post clearly in the lower portion of the rear sights globe and you see a small fuzzy ball floating directly above the front sights post. The top of the front sight and the fuzzy ball is exactly where you want your shot to be, you have your pulse and everything else in the world working your way the only thing left to do is ? You will figure it out:)
 
Steve in Pennsy...

"Why in the heck would anyone qualify someone as an expert with a rifle at 25 yards????????? What kind of insane logic is that????? Thank god when I was in the USMC we qualified with the M16 at 200, 300 and 500 yards. bTW, I qualified expert 3 out of the 4 years I was in."

Relax, there's more to the story than some big-a$$ bullseye at 25 yards. JRiggs is correct, when we qualify with the M16, it's at 25 yards, using a SERIOUSLY reduced target to simulate engagements out to 300 meters. Since we're not Marines, no effort is made to go out there to 500 yards. The SP's (now called SF's, Silly F***ers in the rest of the Air Force vernacular) have other toys for engagements out at that range. There's plenty of reasons for 25 yard qualifications, here, straight out of the Army's Field Manual:

FM 23-9 M16A1 AND M16A2 RIFLE MARKSMANSHIP states: "The U.S. Army is constantly faced with training constraints such as lack of suitable real estate, safety restrictions, and cost of transporting troops to live-fire ranges. Short-range training ammunition allows training in small local training areas without fixed training facilities, in MOUT facilities, and in combat training theaters."


The above is very true, and the Air Force is in a similar bind, the large firing ranges for rifle marksmanship and qualification just aren't there anymore, nor is the manpower and logistics train. Since we don't have the resources, the next best thing is to fire at reduced targets to simulate the longer range engagements. Hence, the 25 yard M16 course of fire, which ain't as easy as one would think. Here's the target:

25mtarget.jpg



http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/7963/25mtarget.jpg

Now, I would LOVE to get a TDY to Camp Perry or Quantico for my yearly M16 and M9 qualifications, but I doubt Uncle Sam would allow those orders to be cut for the average Air Force schmuck like myself. So, in the meantime, we shoot at the above pieces of paper at 25 yards.:D

Now if one wants to date oneself, I qualified expert on the M38 (wadcutters, yeehaa!), M1911, M9, and M16. I wouldn't doubt that the M4 will end up in wider use in the Air Force, but by then I'll be just another retiree vying for pole position in the commissary parking lot on Saturday mornings...

(Revised to include a clickable link to the Air Force/Army target)
 
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Portugese IS one of the best out there. Come to think of it over at FNFAL.com its #1 right now. Followed by Hirtenberger.

RikWriter-Why did you sell your M1A? Just curious?
 
JRiggs,

The SR-1 100 yd. highpower target has a black bull that is approx. 6-1/4 inches in diameter. This closely matches the width of your front sight post as you draw your sight picture at that distance.

Try one about that size and it should give you the basis for fine tuning your sight picture.

Remember.... focus on the FRONT post, NOT the target.

Swampy
 
>>"Why in the heck would anyone qualify someone as an expert with a rifle at 25 yards????????? What kind of insane logic is that????? Thank god when I was in the USMC we qualified with the M16 at 200, 300 and 500 yards. bTW, I qualified expert 3 out of the 4 years I was in."

>>Relax, there's more to the story than some big-a$$ bullseye at 25 yards. JRiggs is correct, when we qualify with the M16, it's at 25 yards, using a SERIOUSLY reduced target to simulate engagements out to 300 meters. Since we're not Marines, no effort is made to go out there to 500 yards. The SP's (now called SF's, Silly F***ers in the rest of the Air Force vernacular) have other toys for engagements out at that range. There's plenty of reasons for 25 yard qualifications, here, straight out of the Army's Field Manual:

hey, even when I was in US army Infantry Division, and being a QRF M60 gunner for 6 months, all I ever shot M60 was 100 rounds at 10 yrds away,(ok, ok, I was in _Desktop_ Company :D )
Did shoot M16 up to 600 yrds away target range though,
 
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