First handgun for my daughter
- Thread starter tp1l
- Start date
aarondhgraham
New member
The Bersa is DA/SA, with an external hammer,,,
That should solve the problem with the heavy DA trigger pull.
Again, I'm not touting one gun over the other,,,
Just exploring all of the options.
If she were oriented towards the target style pistols,,,
I would suggest a Ruger for sure.
I think he said she is oriented more towards combat style guns,,,
That's where the Bersa comes into the arena.
Aarond
To be clear, it was a Mosquito trigger that she's having trouble with (in SA mode) I don't know if the P22 is any lighter, but from memory the 22/45 I traded in (see other thread for reasons) I remember being lighter.
I'm not totally opposed to a DA/SA (I can always rack the slide for her at first) but will probably save that for a bit down the road.
Any yes, I do know she'll outgrow the Crickets in short order. She's sound sensitive, so I'm not sure she'll outgrow the .22 LR round quite as fast (but we'll see, last trip was better than the first). This is actually why I was toying with the idea of a Rough Rider, as a transition gun to use for a while and then sell, though I can see enough advantages in keeping a Bearcat long term that it's still at the top of the list.
I'm not totally opposed to a DA/SA (I can always rack the slide for her at first) but will probably save that for a bit down the road.
Any yes, I do know she'll outgrow the Crickets in short order. She's sound sensitive, so I'm not sure she'll outgrow the .22 LR round quite as fast (but we'll see, last trip was better than the first). This is actually why I was toying with the idea of a Rough Rider, as a transition gun to use for a while and then sell, though I can see enough advantages in keeping a Bearcat long term that it's still at the top of the list.
So you are going to have a tiny-handed kid thumbing the hammer back?
They don't make them any more "combat style" than the 1911.
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/62297
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To clarify. Right now she's interested because it's something I do. That said, she has loved her Daisy Grizzly single pump BB/pellet rifle, and had a ball both times we took her to the youth .22 shoots at the local club.
When I asked her the other night what she wanted out of shooting (specifically handguns) she kind of settled on treating it much like I do right now and much like we both treat martial arts. A way to learn how to use one if we ever had to, but with no (current) plans to carry.
Rifles aside (and I started another thread for them) I'm looking at a multistage approach to handguns. The first step is almost certainly a Bearcat (when budget allows) for safety, accuracy and trigger pull, as well as not scaring her off with something that's troublesome to operate.
The second step is where I'm waffling at the moment (luckily, it's also 9-12 months and may paychecks down the road) and where I'm going to start to look at all of the options suggested here for autoloaders, both target and more "combat" style. I have a preference for the Neos, but that's leftover from looking for my own next plinker, so I'm not sure it'll be the final decision.
I'm also going to encourage her to use the CO2 Makarov and dry fire my Mosquito occasionally as long as she remains interested. I'd certainly be thrilled to let her move from a Bearcat to my Mosquito to her own P239 some day, but the more options I can put in front of her (and explore myself) without going broke, the better.
Thanks again for all of the discussion and advice!
When I asked her the other night what she wanted out of shooting (specifically handguns) she kind of settled on treating it much like I do right now and much like we both treat martial arts. A way to learn how to use one if we ever had to, but with no (current) plans to carry.
Rifles aside (and I started another thread for them) I'm looking at a multistage approach to handguns. The first step is almost certainly a Bearcat (when budget allows) for safety, accuracy and trigger pull, as well as not scaring her off with something that's troublesome to operate.
The second step is where I'm waffling at the moment (luckily, it's also 9-12 months and may paychecks down the road) and where I'm going to start to look at all of the options suggested here for autoloaders, both target and more "combat" style. I have a preference for the Neos, but that's leftover from looking for my own next plinker, so I'm not sure it'll be the final decision.
I'm also going to encourage her to use the CO2 Makarov and dry fire my Mosquito occasionally as long as she remains interested. I'd certainly be thrilled to let her move from a Bearcat to my Mosquito to her own P239 some day, but the more options I can put in front of her (and explore myself) without going broke, the better.
Thanks again for all of the discussion and advice!
Jimbob86 is spot on. If she cannot shoot the mosquito she is going to have trouble with 99% of the DA/SA 22LR guns on th market. The length of pull on the P22 is not any shorter IIRC.
I would look at some of the 1911 22lr guns being put out by Sig and Browning which IIRC are all being made by the same subcontractor. These are mini 1911s made to fire the 22lr round and will have a SA pull with a slim grip which will help the length of pull.
Cocking a gun and handing it to your daughter or racking the slide for her is not a good way to go. You are introducing a great chance of a ND by not purchasing a gun she can operate on her own.
Take her to a store and she what fits....
I would look at some of the 1911 22lr guns being put out by Sig and Browning which IIRC are all being made by the same subcontractor. These are mini 1911s made to fire the 22lr round and will have a SA pull with a slim grip which will help the length of pull.
Cocking a gun and handing it to your daughter or racking the slide for her is not a good way to go. You are introducing a great chance of a ND by not purchasing a gun she can operate on her own.
Take her to a store and she what fits....
aarondhgraham
New member
Hello jimbob86,,,
One of my shooting buddies is a smallish 9 year old girl,,,
Chrisa shoots my Bersa a lot and has no trouble with the hammer.
Another buddy of mine brings his 7 year old with us,,,
Ryan shoots the Bersa with no trouble at all,,,
We cock it for the first shot though.
The only trouble he and Chrisa have is with the de-cocker,,,
Their little thumbs just aren't strong enough yet.
Neither one of the little shooters can grip my 22/45 very well,,,
Both of them can comfortably hold the Bersa.
Interestingly though,,,
Neither of them like shooting my teensy Taurus 22-PLY,,,
It is a DAO pistol with that traditionally long/hard trigger pull.
Aarond
One of my shooting buddies is a smallish 9 year old girl,,,
Chrisa shoots my Bersa a lot and has no trouble with the hammer.
Another buddy of mine brings his 7 year old with us,,,
Ryan shoots the Bersa with no trouble at all,,,
We cock it for the first shot though.
The only trouble he and Chrisa have is with the de-cocker,,,
Their little thumbs just aren't strong enough yet.
Neither one of the little shooters can grip my 22/45 very well,,,
Both of them can comfortably hold the Bersa.
Interestingly though,,,
Neither of them like shooting my teensy Taurus 22-PLY,,,
It is a DAO pistol with that traditionally long/hard trigger pull.
Aarond
WVsig said:
I was thinking of it as more than an interim solution while we worked on finger strength, but your point about the danger is well taken. What we did last night is that I put a single round in the magazine, racked the slide and handed her the Mosquito. Barrel never wavered from downrange and I had positive control until both her hands were on the gun (and one hand close even then, since it was her first pistol experience).
But yes, this is a progression and the goal is definitely to end up with a handgun she can operate herself, working up from there.
Which I suppose leads me to something of a tangent. Of the models listed (and any not yet listed) which .22 LR autoloaders have the easiest slides / bolts to operate?
A friend of mine and I went to the LGS and I had her try every make/model of .22lr they had, as she is thinking of getting one. She is in her late 50s and is concerned not just with being able to rack the slide now, but in 10 or 20 years. She found the Walther P22 to be the easiest to rack, for her. She had used my Ruger 22/45 with no problems, for now. But the Walther was easiest.
Comparison points: Ruger Mark III and 22/45, Buckmark, S&W model 22 and Walther. No Mosquitos in stock at the time. She found the SA shot easy enough to fire with the Walther too, and she was concerned with finger strength. [that led her to the Ruger LCR .38+p as her pistol of choice for defense-racking slide is not an issue and trigger was manageable].
HOWEVER, there are companies that make slide racking extensions for the Ruger to make it easier.
Also, I didn't have her try any of the 1911-based .22lr pistols: whether they be a dedicated .22lr like the GSG or Remington 1911s, or they be a .22lr kit on top of a Kimber [for example].
But, without any slide racking accessories bolted on, she found the Walther the best fit in her [smallish] hands and easiest to rack the slide.
Comparison points: Ruger Mark III and 22/45, Buckmark, S&W model 22 and Walther. No Mosquitos in stock at the time. She found the SA shot easy enough to fire with the Walther too, and she was concerned with finger strength. [that led her to the Ruger LCR .38+p as her pistol of choice for defense-racking slide is not an issue and trigger was manageable].
HOWEVER, there are companies that make slide racking extensions for the Ruger to make it easier.
Also, I didn't have her try any of the 1911-based .22lr pistols: whether they be a dedicated .22lr like the GSG or Remington 1911s, or they be a .22lr kit on top of a Kimber [for example].
But, without any slide racking accessories bolted on, she found the Walther the best fit in her [smallish] hands and easiest to rack the slide.
aarondhgraham
New member
Easy slides?,,,
I'm not sure there is any appreciable difference in most of them,,,
But this little accessory for the Ruger Mk-III series looks neat.
Volquartsen Bolt Assist - Mark III
I have seen another one for the Rugers,,,
It looks more like a finger hook that extends to the side of the slide.
Having never used one I can't testify as to their worth,,,
But just looking at them I would say they should make the slide easier to work.
Chrisa can work the slide on the Bersa well enough,,,
But it took quite a bit of practice on her technique to do it.
I have a decent amount of experience with both Rugers, S&W 22-A, and the Beretta NEOS,,,
I never noticed much difference in the ease or difficulty of any of them.
Aarond
I'm not sure there is any appreciable difference in most of them,,,
But this little accessory for the Ruger Mk-III series looks neat.
Volquartsen Bolt Assist - Mark III
I have seen another one for the Rugers,,,
It looks more like a finger hook that extends to the side of the slide.
Having never used one I can't testify as to their worth,,,
But just looking at them I would say they should make the slide easier to work.
Chrisa can work the slide on the Bersa well enough,,,
But it took quite a bit of practice on her technique to do it.
I have a decent amount of experience with both Rugers, S&W 22-A, and the Beretta NEOS,,,
I never noticed much difference in the ease or difficulty of any of them.
Aarond
aaron, how did those grip angles compare?
Not sure if the OP's daughter will have any preference, yet, but grip angle could be a factor when she checks them out.
My wife, for instance, finds my M&Ps point more naturally for her than do my Berettas. (But she still prefers K-frames.)
Not sure if the OP's daughter will have any preference, yet, but grip angle could be a factor when she checks them out.
My wife, for instance, finds my M&Ps point more naturally for her than do my Berettas. (But she still prefers K-frames.)
I like the looks of that Volquartsen setup linked above. All the weight is centered on the center of the bolt, and all torsional forces involved in racking the bolt backward are on the center also-no 'side-loading' of pressure on the bolt from a bar of metal on one side. Furthermore it wouldn't seem to affect a holster of any form, if that were desired.
I like the 22/45 grip angle better than the Mark II/III as I own 1911s but I don't own any Lugers.
That may be why Glocks feel weird to me also: pointed more forward like the Mark III than a 1911 or my other auto-loaders/bottom-feeders.
I like the 22/45 grip angle better than the Mark II/III as I own 1911s but I don't own any Lugers.
That may be why Glocks feel weird to me also: pointed more forward like the Mark III than a 1911 or my other auto-loaders/bottom-feeders.Racking the .22/45 bolt for little kids
I think the bolt assist dealybobber is not necessary unless you have a ginormous scope in the way (which is just silly anyway)....... as with most things shooty, it more about technique than strength.....
With trigger finger properly indexed along the frame, gun close to the body(such that the elbows and most of the forearms are touching the body), gun pointed down at the ground at a 45 degree angle and the gun canted 45 degrees to the weak/support side and the with support hand, grasp the pistol just ahead of the bolt "ears" between the last joint of the thumb and the first joint of the weakside index finger. Lock that grip and the SS wrist. Push the SS arm forward. Voila': little kid just racked the bolt.
I think the bolt assist dealybobber is not necessary unless you have a ginormous scope in the way (which is just silly anyway)....... as with most things shooty, it more about technique than strength.....
With trigger finger properly indexed along the frame, gun close to the body(such that the elbows and most of the forearms are touching the body), gun pointed down at the ground at a 45 degree angle and the gun canted 45 degrees to the weak/support side and the with support hand, grasp the pistol just ahead of the bolt "ears" between the last joint of the thumb and the first joint of the weakside index finger. Lock that grip and the SS wrist. Push the SS arm forward. Voila': little kid just racked the bolt.
Kathy Jackson (aka Pax) has a section in her Cornered Cat website and book that address racking techniques for female shooters. Pretty much in line with what jimbob86 recommends. Good discussions on the site and in the book about factors that go into selecting a firearm, etc.
(Notice how many of us regularly refer this type of question to http://corneredcat.com There's a reason for that.)
FWIW, I got to meet Kathy last month, and observe her training technique. If you are in or near SW Washington state, I highly recommend her.
(Notice how many of us regularly refer this type of question to http://corneredcat.com There's a reason for that.)
FWIW, I got to meet Kathy last month, and observe her training technique. If you are in or near SW Washington state, I highly recommend her.
aarondhgraham
New member
Hello Mleake,,,
Lemme see here:
The Ruger 22/45 series feels very similar to a 1911,,,
The Ruger MK series feels just like a Luger,,,
The Beretta has a very slender grip,,,
The S&W 22A has a very fat grip,,,
I have K-frame hands,,,
The Beretta and the 22/45 work for me very nicely,,,
I do find that the luger-ish grip of the Mk series feels a teensy bit awkward to me.
We may be splitting too fine a hair here,,,
After all, this is a young girl whose hands will change quickly.
I'm personally not a huge fan of SA cowboy revolvers,,,
I have a small Colt Frontier Scout that none of the kids like shooting.
But the OP's thought of a Ruger bearcat might be the best for a first handgun.
The Bearcat is certainly small enough for young hands,,,
And it's an heirloom quality gun that will outlast her grandkids.
But if I were going to buy a revolver for a young kid I would get either,,,
A used S&W Model 34 or Model 63,,,
Or a new S&W Model 63,,,
I prefer DA/SA actions,,,
But that's just me.
Aarond
aarond, how did those grip angles compare?
Lemme see here:
The Ruger 22/45 series feels very similar to a 1911,,,
The Ruger MK series feels just like a Luger,,,
The Beretta has a very slender grip,,,
The S&W 22A has a very fat grip,,,
I have K-frame hands,,,
The Beretta and the 22/45 work for me very nicely,,,
I do find that the luger-ish grip of the Mk series feels a teensy bit awkward to me.
We may be splitting too fine a hair here,,,
After all, this is a young girl whose hands will change quickly.
I'm personally not a huge fan of SA cowboy revolvers,,,
I have a small Colt Frontier Scout that none of the kids like shooting.
But the OP's thought of a Ruger bearcat might be the best for a first handgun.
The Bearcat is certainly small enough for young hands,,,
And it's an heirloom quality gun that will outlast her grandkids.
But if I were going to buy a revolver for a young kid I would get either,,,
A used S&W Model 34 or Model 63,,,
Or a new S&W Model 63,,,
I prefer DA/SA actions,,,
But that's just me.
Aarond
Actually, she points out that this the wrong way to rack a gun with a slide, as the whole hand over the top of the slide is stronger than a finger and thumb on the rear of it ....... that said, the .22/45 has no actual slide.... and if the internal hammer is down, getting that bolt back (compressing the mainspring in the process) is not easy for a little kid, unless they know how to do it.
Kathy Jackson is an excellent instructor, if her teaching is half as good as her cornered cat site.