First attempt at annealing

You do not need any magic liquids or anything else to anneal correctly...
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Yes, you do.
Either that, or don't do it.

(Yes, I'm being blunt ).
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Long before the Internet reloaders were reloading and annealing; after the Internet reloaders starting talking it to death. I gave into the loud and rude. Before the Internet I decided there were simple rules and factors; based in rules and factors I made a few pieces of equipment that I use for annealing.

Funny thing happened at a gun show; I had a few pieces of equipment I offered for sale on the table. No one recognized the pieces as being anything that resembled a tool. I also had a large branding iron. It spelled ‘NRA’ (backwards), I thought the truth about the branding iron was more interesting than believing members had their own branding iron.

F. Guffey
 
F_Guff, Like the forward pass in football, annealing can produce four results:
Two of then are bad (ineffective/inconsistent anneal and/or burned-out/ruined brass); and one is really bad (over-heated case head)

Only one of them is Good: proper anneal temp for proper time. UncleNick has posted the Time/Temp curve req'd on multiple occasions.

When it's stated "nothing special" in terms of time/temp control is req'd, I'm going to call it bluntly Not-So. To do anything else is irresponsible.

On the other hand, when someone offers an alternative that actually works (i.e.rodfac), credit is not only due, but given freely. ;)
 
I think I'm just more confused.

I watched this video before I even attempted the process.

https://youtu.be/fiIrLvAUh6o

I judged it mostly on flame coming off the brass as in this video. Coloration of the brass afterwards too. Is this wrong as there is no temp control use at all, just running and flame color. Really at the end of the day, I don't want to blow my gun up shooting super soft brass. I get that a temp control is ideal. But there have to be other signs that brass is annealed other than tempilaq changing color. Really my question is, with everybody's experience, do they look over done?

Thanks for the replies and advice.
 
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There is no reproducible way to use flame (or brass) color as an
indicator of temperature. Too many variables: type/strength of
ambient light (or lack thereof), type/composition/strength/oxidizing
characteristics of the flame used (which can very from session-to-
session (propane/MAP, air mix, etc), and the individual brass alloys
from manufacturer to manufacturer.

Tempilaq (which gives you the brass temp) and/or the immersive
lead-bath (known heat environ/transfer temp) are the only methods
I know of, and used by the industry when setting up the big annealing
machine sessions.
 
There is no reproducible way to use flame (or brass) color as an
indicator of temperature. Too many variables: type/strength of
ambient light (or lack thereof), type/composition/strength/oxidizing
characteristics of the flame used (which can very from session-to-
session (propane/MAP, air mix, etc), and the individual brass alloys
from manufacturer to manufacturer.
Click to expand...

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^That^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I only watched the first minute of the video but I can tell you he is right and wrong . He's right in respect to his setup and wrong to conclude the flame changing color is to much heat no mater what .

In my tests I was able to set the heat and flame angle just right as to use the start of the orange flame to indicate when I hit the right temp . Which was the moment to remove the case from the flame . I was only able to do this by using the tempilaq while adjusting the flame and heat .

I read that thread I linked above again yesterday . I forgot how much was discussed . Some really smart people were part of that thread and they all had very good info to share .

One off the things theorized was that the orange flame is the zinc burning off . Brass is made of copper and zinc . Zinc has a melting point of something like 765* while copper is much MUCH higher . So the theory was/is that if you use a very hot flame the outside of the case/neck heats slightly faster then the inside resulting in the outside of the neck reaching the 765* faster then the inside resulting in the zinc starting to burn off .

If you read the thread I linked in full this is explained by others and then tested by me with different flame sizes . My test showed as I explained above that I could reach the exact same temp when having no orange flame appear , a very light orange flame or in the case of MAPP gas a big orange flame . It's the very reason I say judging when to remove the case from the flame by how the flame looks is not and accurate way to anneal If you don't have a control/reference to base your view on .

Can it work ? yes and I've done/do it but only after I set up and have ran control samples first so I know what I'm looking for in that specific session .

FWIW - I think your cases are likely fine if you did not see them get red hot and the fact it took 6 wacks to dislodge the bullet . When mine are done it takes 1-1/2 to 2 wacks to pull a 175gr smk from a case . I how ever use bushing dies and I can control my bullet hold by changing bushings . You might want to wait and see if Unclenick come along . He'd be best to answer that . But in the thread I linked He did talk about getting the necks to soft . One of the things he talked about was the necks splitting sooner then normal . Maybe on the third firing or so after annealing . I remember reading it but don't remember the specifics or where in the thread it was .

Funny-ish story I use bushing dies for 223 as well but sized a bunch a cases with my old Lee die set . I loaded a few dummy rounds and when I went to wack them out . Holly cow I had to beat the heck out of them to get the bullets out . .
 
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You guys are so good you make me sick.

I can't solder, can't weld, can't anneal steel, can't anneal brass.

I tried Varmint Al's dark room low red glow annealing 15 years ago.
 
Gigantic pictures aside (1024 x 1820 is too big) and assuming you did not heat to red hot (way too hot), looks fine.
You do not need any magic liquids or anything else to anneal correctly. However you don't need or want too much heat. Visible changing of color of the brass is enough.
Difference between MAPP and propane is 43C degrees; probably not enough to matter.
Click to expand...

Yes, you do.
Either that, or don't do it.
Click to expand...

(Yes, I'm being blunt ).
Click to expand...

T. O'Heir : with all do respect can you explain how you have come to this conclusion ? I have run multiple tests and have come to the exact opposite conclusions.
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I am not a fan of putting reloaders into a dead run when starting. There are different methods and techniques; most have been around for many years. I am not the fan of rediscovering and reinventing,


Maybe it's you and I differ on the definition of correctly . If you were to leave out the word correctly and just said "You do not need any magic liquids or anything else to anneal" full stop . Then I'd agree with you . I've tested , read about and talked with many people about this subject . I have found many have different wants/expectations when it comes to annealing there brass . They then give advice on how to anneal based on what they're willing to except as correct .
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I believe you take yourself a little more serious than I.

I've tested , read about and talked with many people about this subject.
Click to expand...

I suggest you try listening. I said there were rules, I said there were factors. Then there is that moment in time when template was introduced to the reloading world. In the big inning it was suggested a reloader use template to get a sense of time and heat. It never occurred to the member making the recommendation there were reloader that had to start over and over and over everyday.

F. Guffey
 
One of the funniest video by an expert demonstrated the hand as a temperature indicator. ‘Two-shooter’ started his video with his hand holding the case while rotating the case over a flame; and then, the video stops and restarts; his hand was no where to be seen.

And then there was the reloader that used a candle. I suggested we all think about it; that did not work, some got mad and rude but thinking did not happen.

F. Guffey
 
I didn't read the entire thread, but I have to go with Metal God on this one...

Throwing metal chips for 40+ years, doing a bunch of heat treating, I can tell you there is no way to anneal copper or brass without an accurate temp indicator.

The best thing I can tell you is if you insist on using 'Gas' then you MUST have an accurate way to tell the temp of the BASE MATERAL,
NOT the surface you are laying heat to!

Temp paint on the outside is worthless, the gas will cook it.
Temp paint on the INSIDE of the case will give you a pretty good idea,
But not 100% accurate.

Keep the flame at an 'UP' angle towards the neck/shoulder so flame doesn't contact the temp paint or your readings won't be accurate.

The one thing I can tell you is,
*IF* you see the 'Puff' of smoke from the case neck, the case is ruined for all practical purposes.
That smoke 'Puff' is alloy compounds reaching combustion/vapor point.
See the 'Puff' just throw that case in the 'Plinking' brass pile, its not going to be accurate or live long...
(I found this out the hard way!)

Personally, I've gone to electrical induction heating and a timer...
12 to 24 volts, $50 worth of parts, a $20 infrared pyrometer and you are off to the races.

'YouTube' is full of home made induction coil heaters,
There are $50 parts kits sold a lot of places,
A 555 or 556 timer IC from Radio Shack so you can control EXACTLY how hot the case gets...
Once you hit your temp mark its 100% repeat-ability.

Commercial units run anywhere from $250 to $500 for basic to $1,500 for advanced units.
Homemade under $50.

This is the controls I built for my commercial production unit,
About $300 in parts, running both timers & infrared for redundancy.
Spits out 6 cases about every 2.5 seconds.

image_zpsewbwkiqu.jpg
 
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Metal God,
The 'Tinning' (silver color) on the outside of the brass doesn't appear on the inside, pretty well proving the case was heated too fast, raising the zinc to the surface,
While the temp paint inside still showed the proper heated brass color.

Took me YEARS to learn that...

Just because you haven't hit the vapor point and burned the zinc out doesn't mean you haven't started the seperation process...

What you can't get the 'Purests' to realize is there is more in rifle brass than just copper & zinc,
You CAN burn off the trace elements, silicone, selenium, ect.

Took an engineer from Remington to explain that one to me or I still wouldn't know it...
And every maker has there own formulia of brass.

The big places use electrical induction to control Temprature exactly,
And since I do conversion calibers (.308 to .22-250, .223 to .300 Blackout, Ect) I needed to precisely control temp since you need to anneal several times in some cases...
That's why I went with electrical induction.

Electrical induction heats the brass by exciting the molecular structure using magnetic pole reversal,
The 'Eddie Currents' created when the magnetic poles reverse very quickly heats the brass from the inside out.

The coils are water cooled, you can put your finger on them while they are working,
The brass has no cooling, so it heats up INTERNALLY, all parts of the brass heat up at a controlled rate, evenly, depending on how close to the coils the brass is.

Around 2.5 seconds is as fast as I can heat the brass THROUGHLY without cooking any of the alloy components out of the brass.
Any faster and I risk seperating out alloy components, or vaporing them off into atmosphere.

Since the brass is the only thing getting hot, I can use an infrared pyrometer to get a pretty much exact reading of the actual case neck temp.
Couldn't do that with flame of any kind, by the time the temp normalized in the case after turning off the flame,
The thermal creep would be sucking heat out of the neck and I get false readings.

Anyway, that's my take on things, I'm sure some won't agree,
Some won't think its 'Nessary',
And some will just be lost...

With production of cases, induction heating is the ONLY way to go if for nothing but speed of production alone!
 
F_Guff, Like the forward pass in football, annealing can produce four results:
Two of then are bad
Click to expand...

And then there was the freshman football player at Vanderbilt. He ran the length of the field for a touchdown; long story, his coach could say nothing good about the players effort. The player walked off to shouting distance and then turned to the coach and shouted: HAY COUCH! HOW WAS IT FOR DISTANCE?

F. Guffey
 
Difference between MAPP and propane is 43C degrees. Probably not enough to matter.
Click to expand...

I have to look it up and am not going to, but Metal God is right.

While I am not nearly into it the depth he is for annealing, we use silver bearing solder at work.

Propane does not get the copper hot enough to reliably work (a lot more torching and heating) , we use map gas for that.

The torch needs to be Mapp gas or dual use. My work ones are Mapp.

Home is a dual use as not as large copper.

I would go with all Propane for trying to Anneal per Metal God.

Induction is by far the better way to go, I will look into the kits. We use that for heating bearing up for install on motor shaft and it works a treat.

Prior to that we had to use a temple stick, heat, test, heat, test all the time while rolling around the bearing to get as even as possible on the inner race.

I still use it for bearings too small (6204 and smaller) that the bearing heater is too large to get through the inner race.

Not so bad on small bearings, not much fun on larger.
 
'Annie' was something I looked at, until I saw the $500+ price tag...

Two things I ran into building my own versions through the years,
One is an 'Open' or 'C' coil leaves part of the brass that heats slower, less evenly.
Not an issue when you are bolt/rust busting or heating something up to hot forge it, but becomes an issue if you don't rotate the case while its heating.

The second with 'Annie' or any other solid conductor heater is the solid wire conductor heats up also,
No reading case temp with a 'No Contact' thermometer like an infrared gun.
The coil will confuse the reading.

Nothing says you can't use 1/8" or 3/16" copper tubing instead of the copper wire supplied/shown, use an aquarium pump and pump water through the tubing while you are using it,
That solves one issue completely.

I use a circular wound coil of tubing,
Drop cases in from above (5 gallon bucket case feeder $15 to build, or case feeder from my Dillon press, $250 to buy)
And drop the annealed cases out the bottom.

Remember, this thing only heats the METAL case,
So drop gate 'In' and drop gate 'Out' are plastic.
$3 electro-magnet solenoids off eBay and 3/$10 relays off eBay work pretty good to feed the annealer (vertical feed through a continuous, 360* coil).

If you are any good at 'Scavenging' or 'Salvaging' electrical parts,
The turntable motor from a microwave makes a reasonable drive for a case feeder,
The transformer makes a pretty good, and easy to convert power supply for the annealer.
Motor, 5 gallon bucket with lid (lid makes the rotating disk to feed the cases), and a plastic transmission funnel from the parts store comprise the case feeder, with a couple common switches added and some serious plastic glue...

Radio Shack sells a 'Beginner' electronics project booklet,
On of the projects is a '555' or '556' timer.
Costs under $10 for the entire timer component pieces.
Now you have a timer for your induction heater,

With a 'Latching' relay,
Every time the heater shuts off, it dumps one case (the one that just got done)
And drops a new case in the annealer for heating, turning on the timer/annealer again, over and over again until no dropping cases activate the annealer...
(As in, out of cases, so the machine simply shuts down until you drop more cases in...)

I'm 'Present' when mine is running, but I'm usually working on something else or watching cartoons. You don't have to baby-sit it with micro-switches detecting case drops...
 
For the 'DIY' basics, try this, http://www.rmcybernetics.com/projects/DIY_Devices/diy-induction-heater.htm

If you have ANY electrical ability at all, if you can twist wires together without starting a fire, you can build the induction heater for about $50,
Less if you don't have an issue with 'Salvage' components.

You DO NOT need fancy, precisely regulated power supplies,
I use batteries, $15 eBay power supplies, or just throw a few windings of insulated wire around a salvaged microwave transformer and I'm off to the races!
These things don't much care what the input voltage is,
Most of the DIY instructions will cook along fine at anywhere from 12 volts to 48 volts, the more input voltage, the more 'Watts' it will lay into the brass...

Videos showing stupid simple examples of small scale DIY induction heaters,

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pVYMLnXW9uo

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Te5YYVZiOKs

Search on EBay turned this up,

http://m.ebay.com/itm/1000W-inducti...g-and-heat-treatment-/262362959436?nav=SEARCH

And this timer,with 0.01 second capability...
http://m.ebay.com/itm/Inkbird-IDT-E...y-Relay-Switch-Black-/161856543726?nav=SEARCH

This timer has 0.1 Second capability with power off memory, Dirt Cheap, but takes just a tiny bit more wiring...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Trigger-Cyc...f4c03e1&pid=100009&rk=1&rkt=1&sd=281744723381
 
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