First 1911: any thoughts?

I have a 5" Springfield (loaded package) that suits my defensive needs just fine. If I were in competition, I might spend the money for a higher-end pistol or an accuracy job, but I just don't need extremely small groups on a defensive pistol at conversational distances.
 
Snubnose, you're totally wrong. I have never had to fork out one red cent to get a modern factory 1911 working correctly. No ifs ands or buts, you're totally misstating the case.
 
RikWriter:

I should apologize to you and the rest of the forum, it was obviously my intention to open old wounds with my sarcasm, and I did intend to rile you up a bit. I apologize for stirring the pot.

Anyone who has followed any of the forums knows about Kimber's pathetic customer service, it's no secret. Long time members of this forum know about the difficulties that I had with my Kimber Gold Match over a period of many months. The problems with my Kimber were solved when Brian Bilby fixed the gun. Furthermore, the master dealer, Dean's Sporting Goods in Casper, Wyoming had problems with Kimber on this issue. Also, the representatives in Montana (Kimber's office) had a real pissing match with the guys in Yonkers. The company is horribly fragmented and the infighting manifests itself as poor customer service.

The fact is, Kimber screwed me out of a substantial sum of money and I lost my ass on the pistol. I hate that company with every fiber of my being and I have nothing but contempt for their organization. While I am an ardent critic of Kimber, it seems that you rush to defend them at every opportunity. I am glad that you have had good luck with Kimber and it is nice that they have a supporter.

Still, facts is facts, Kimber is a production gun and their product is not as good as the Wilsons, Baers, Rock Rivers, and so on. To pretend that Kimber makes as good a product as the great 1911 shops is nothing but bull crap, period. Greg Bell asked about 1911 pistols, and he mentioned the Baer in particular. If Greg is interested in something in the price and quality range of a Baer, then that pretty much leaves Kimber out of the mix. Enough said.
 
Am I totally wrong?

RikWriter said: "Snubnose, you're totally wrong. I have never had to fork out one red cent to get a modern factory 1911 working correctly. No ifs ands or buts, you're totally misstating the case."


Rik:

First off lets not get rude about it okay? I'm not totally wrong and don't you dare ever tell me or anyone else in this forum again that they are. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion even if it isn't yours. There are alot of us out here who have had many of todays 1911's only to find them plauged with problems. These problems can either be fixed by the factory if they can fix it or you feel like dealing with that hassle, or you can send it to a competent gunsmith. These things cost money. These are things I've had to have done and again there are many others who have had to take the "Best Combat Hangun Ever Made" and have it brought up to par. Your experience is not everyone's. You've never had to fork out money? Well great! Good for you Rik. Also let me apologize to you Rik. I did'nt realize in one of your earlier posts that you were quoting someone else about Kimbers not being as good as Baers, Wilsons etc. I see that you view is different than that. Again my apologies for the confusion, but I still stand by my posts.
 
I am sorry, but I just had to comment on this yelling match. I have never owned a high price piece such as Baer, etc., but have spent many hours drooling over them in magazines. I do have 5 Colts of various types and all until the last had some kind of customizing done, but not because they would not work. I recently purchased a 1991a1, basic government model in 38 Super. It has absolutely no modifications done to it and I am enjoying it greatly. I find it to be reliable and fun to shoot. If one has the money and wishes to purchase a high priced 1911, go for it! I think that is great, but 1911's can be fine out of the box and factory models. No, I don't think they have the pride of ownership or the quality of the others, but they can and do work great for the many people who are unable to afford the others. I am not intending to flame anyone, if I had the bucks I would love one (at least if someone made an officers frame with a commander slide in 38 Super - already have a CCO in 45)!
 
snubnose said:
"First off lets not get rude about it okay?"

Sure, let's not. I haven't yet, so if you don't we'll be fine.

"I'm not totally wrong and don't you dare ever tell me or anyone else in this forum again that they are."

Sorry, I think I will say whatever I feel is correct. You are totally wrong. You stated that to get any stock 1911 to be a reliable gun that the original poster would have to spend hundreds of dollars. That is totally wrong.


"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion even if it isn't yours."

Thanks for agreeing. You're entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to my opinion that yours is totally wrong. I don't see your problem with this.
 
Ya know what Rik. I think you've got a real attitude problem. No, let's not get rude. But I do think it's rude of you to tell someone that they're totally wrong when that's the case. Let's face the fact here Rik. No one here in these forums is a friggin expert. Even when I've disagreed with what someone has had to say I've never said to them that they're totally wrong. I guess we should all bow down to your expertise. I know I'll definately base my next purchase on your infinate firearms wisdom. You need to look at what I said again. Your experience is not the be all end all. Nor is mine. In my case and of others I've known and have read of on this very forum, sometimes it is the case that some extra money is needed to bring a 1911 up to par. Are you one of these 1911 die hards? If so any amount of dialoge is pointless because every damn 1911 die hard I've ever known is a know it all. I look forward to hearing from you. AMF
 
Snubnose, it might be true that some people have had to spend some money on their particular 1911 to get it working.
However, what you told the gentleman was that if he bought a 1911 he would have to put hundreds of dollars into it to make it work. There were no ifs ands or buts, you just stated it. And that is an incorrect assumption on your part.
My experiences ALONE would make it incorrect as your assumption was inclusive. However, I know personally dozens of people who have had the same experiences I have, and have read accounts from hundreds more online.
That's enough for me to say unequivocally that you're wrong.
If you can't deal with the fact that someone thinks you're wrong, you probably shouldn't post your opinions for public consumption.
There was no personal insult given or intended, just a declaration that your inclusive statement was wrong.
 
RikWriter said "My experiences ALONE would make it incorrect as your assumption was inclusive. However, I know personally dozens of people who have had the same experiences I have, and have read accounts from hundreds more online. That's enough for me to say unequivocally that you're wrong. If you can't deal with the fact that someone thinks you're wrong, you probably shouldn't post your opinions for public consumption."


Rik, you're saying exactly what I said. From my experiences and from people whom I know and from postings I have read people sometimes need to take a 1911 in for work. How in the hell then am I totally wrong. What am I gonna do, lie about it? I could say you're totally wrong but you're not. Those are your experiences and that's fine, sometimes folks get lucky with 1911's right out of the box and sometimes they don't as in my case. I can deal with the fact someone might disagree with what I say but I am NOT wrong nor are you. The purpose of forums like this one is to obtain knowledge and for debate. Not about pointing fingers and saying "you're wrong"..."no..you're wrong" like a bunch of kids. Let's end this "wrong" thing before it gets ugly.
 
Snubnose, if it gets ugly, it will not be from me insulting you, because I don't intend to do that. But here is what you said:
"Yeah, don't waste your money. I've owned just about every 1911 on the market and they're all pretty much dogs. But I must especially agree with RikWriter, if you insist upon taking the plunge get a Baer or Wilson. One of the really high dollar 1911's. That's the only way you'll truly be satisfied. Now some will disagree with that statement, but if you buy a Kimber, Springfield, etc, you're gonna have to spend that extra money to get them up to par anyway. So just be prepaired no matter what route you go with a 1911 that you will be forking out some serious cash."

Now that is not you saying "There's a possibility you might have to spend some extra money to get a stock 1911 to be as reliable as you want" that is you flat out stating that all the 1911s on the market are dogs and that getting one to work will require several hundred dollars. That's an inclusive statement that says unequivocally that all the stock 1911s on the market will need major cash investment to work.
If you make a statement that says "All of X is bad" and someone else can show that just ONE of X is good, your statement is wrong.
Now, I have owned over two dozen 1911s personally and not one of them needed any work to be a reliable, accurate gun. Some were more accurate than others, some preferred certain kinds of ammo, but none needed major work to be reliable with factory defensive hollowpoints or FMJs. I have many friends into shooting, including two SOT manufacturers and I am casual acquaintances with several dealers with large personal collections.
Many of these people are 1911 shooters, and I have not heard a report out of one of them that any modern 1911 by a major brand manufacturer needed hundreds of dollars of work to be reliable.
Some of them HAVE 1911s with hundreds of dollars worth of modifications, but these guns are for competition, not defense or casual target shooting. Some of them build their own 1911s for fun and sink a grand into the job before they are finished just because they CAN.
But none ever had to do major work just to get a modern factory 1911 reliable.
I know ONE person who KNOWS a person who had to do major work to a 1911 to get it to work and it still doesn't...but that gun is a Llama, not a Colt, Para Ord, Kimber, or Springfield.
Now, of these many friends and acquaintances, we are talking literally hundreds of 1911s between them. I think that is quite a represenative sample.
Also, though I can't vouch for them as I don't know them personally, I have read dozens of posts on message boards such as this and on rec.guns from people who have owned multiple 1911s that didn't need work to be reliable.

So, the upshot is, if you want to tell someone "I had a bad experience with the 1911s I own and you might too" I won't say a word...you're absolutely right. ANYONE can have a bad experience with ANY brand of handgun because lemons get through, and when there are SO many manufacturers and SO many individual 1911 pattern guns made over SO long a time, there WILL be lemons.
But if you state categorically that "all stock 1911s are junk and will need work" I can say without hesitation that you're wrong.

I hope you don't take this disagreement personally as that is not how it is intended. But I would appreciate if you could find the flaw in my reasoning here...if there is one.
 
I'm not going to get in the middle of this

I own two Kimbers. I'll bet my life (and do) on either of them (Classic and target). The Classic I use for daily carry is almost at 10,000 rounds without ANY failures. None. Zero. The Target has only been fired enough to break it in (about 1,500 rounds). It, too, has not experienced one failure. these are 'basic' pistols, with the "Target" model being identical to the Classic save an adjustable (mediocre) rear sight. The Classic set me back $525 and the Target model $600 at the time of purchase. I state with absolute truth that there were no offerings in that price range out there that compared at the time they were purchased. Today, Springfield and Para-Ordnance would give me cause for reserve, but I do not regret my decision at the time, nor do I today. My Kimbers are holding up quite well and should continue to do so. Much better than that Colt Series 70 garbage I latched on to prior to getting a bit smarter.

That being said, I plan on purchasing a high-end 1911 in the near future, probably a Wilson or Baer.

I agree with those members who say that Kimber should not be considered in the same genre. There are essentially three types of 1911's out there, factory, factory custom and custom.

I won't own a factory (production) gun, having been that route. Too high of a percentage of them have problems or will not do what you want them to do and will only serve to disappoint.

The Kimbers are factory customs. Essentially, they are production guns, claimed to be built to a 'higher' (elusive term?) standard. My experience has led me to believe this is true in regard to Kimbers (at least mine).

The custom guns are a beauty to behold and utilize. They are certainly in a class all of their own.

I do not appreciate the Kimber high end pistols like those from the regarded custom shops. There have been too many customer service horror stories. Yes, I have borne witness to a couple Baer and Wilson tales of woe, so the feeling is only slightly less when it comes to the custom shops. At this point in time, if I was going to spend over a thousand dollars on a 1911, it wouldn't be a high end Kimber.

I can't believe I just said that.

However, I think I would be hard pressed to find a better 1911 for under a thousand dollars than a Kimber. If any of you fine members can point me to a NIB quality 1911 better than what I am carrying, I would be most appreciative.

Over that amount and I am shopping custom.

I'd rather argue 9mm versus .45 ACP anyway...

Ha Ha!
 
I post on this board and I am an expert.

Final answer: all brands can be good or bad (Jennings that run forever, Glocks that jam).
1911's from whoever are the same, some good some not-so-good. (Mine's really really good. Caspian, of course.)

I have some experience with 'stock' 45's, and Kimber is generally best out-the-box, and Springfield isn't bad, either.

As for high-end 1911's, Baer, Briley, Robar, Nowlin, Rock River, and Ed Brown should satisfy the most discriminating shooter.
My personal ton-o'-money was home-brewed, with machining and most fitting done by a friend. Only outside work was its NP3 coating from Robar (someday all my guns will be NP3'ed). Stunning reliability, accuracy, and overall coolness.
 
I'd like to add to Jager1's post that there is an additional category of what some would term "True custom gun" or perhaps a better term would be "Master 'smithed gun". These being the one man operations out there who are artisans in the ultimate sense of the word. The pistol is built to your specific exacting specifications and then this Master of his art adds his own touches and produces something unique and breathtaking. With Wilson or Baer you are usually buying a packaged gun and can add this option or that. When you go custom all the way, for better or worse, you get exactly what you want down to the pins used. Prolly take you a few years from the date of order, but it is an option if time and money are not concerns.

And as mentioned there is the home-built option but for a first 1911, I wouldn't go that route.
 
Rik,

You wanna say I'm wrong...fine. I know that I'm not. That's all that really matters. Everyone has their own school of thought on 1911's. I've never seen any other pistol, except pehaps glocks, which has inspired so much heated debate like the 1911. So with that I'm done with this "wrong" debate.
 
Greg:

I know I josh you a bit and I appreciate your good nature but I must caution you on the 1911: unless you are willing to put down some serious jack, avoid them.

They are durable, great to shoot and great-feeling weapons but they must be tuned. Don't expect Glock, Sig or HK-like functionality with a variety of fodder unless you buy a Baer, Wilson or McCormick or like offering.
 
Will, if all 1911s need tuning, how do you explain all the ones I have had and all the ones friends and acquaintances of mine have had that didn't need a bit of work done to them?
 
I too think the reliablility issue with 1911s is exaggerated. I have had 16 pass through my gunlocker over the years. With the exception of the 3 Colts, all of them ate everything I ever fed them "out of the box."

7 Kimbers - no customization
5 Springfields - no customization
1 Wilson - built in Customization
3 Colts - required customization and still didn't work 100%

Maybe I am just lucky as long as I stay away from Colt.
 
Unfortunately, the nature of the Web often times creates misunderstandings, and it can be difficult for readers to interpret what the writer fully intends.

I am no expert, and at times I am dead wrong. Then again, I have had some experience with Kimbers, Clarks, Colts, Baer, etc. One thing I do know is that Kimber has some issues with the internal workings of their organization, and their customer service can be pretty bad. That comes from experience, not rumor, not emotions, just dollars right down the crapper.

Maybe it's time to get the old lock out before it gets ugly in here.
 
i thought that everyone here was on the same side. we are
all here for the same reason. we like guns and want to be
able to enjoy them. that means sharing information with
other people that like what you like, guns. not everyone
is an expert on everything. there is always someone that
knows something that you don't. the anti gunners want us to
fight amongst ourselves. i guess they have succeeded.
 
bigfoot, I don't see how. People have disagreements, it's part of life. I am certainly not taking snubnose's disagreement personally and I sincerely hope he doesn't take mine that way.
Just because neither of us is willing to change our position doesn't mean we are angry at each other. I certainly would never get angry at someone for having an opinion contrary to mine on something as trivial as a gun design.
 
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