Rich Lucibella
Staff
Mike-
Valid points. I think Dave has stated my position better than I could.
Rich
Valid points. I think Dave has stated my position better than I could.
Rich
Firearms transshipment and UPS
- Thread starter RWK
- Start date
Mike Spight
New member
Rich:
Dave did raise good points and certainly didn't ruffle my feathers. I'm just at a loss to understand why a corporation the size of UPS was unable to develop active and passive security measures that would have aggressively addressed the problem (in general) and perhaps precluded one particular idiot from stealing 400+ firearms. Perhaps they tried, but just couldn't stop the problem...if so, I don't think they tried hard enough.
To say "...we just won't ship them via ground anymore..." ignores the problem completely and slaps gundealers, manufactuers, smiths and shooters in the face/pocket.
Bottomline, I think Gale McMillan's approach in another thread may re-focus their attention...go with another shipper for ALL his needs.
Mike
Dave did raise good points and certainly didn't ruffle my feathers. I'm just at a loss to understand why a corporation the size of UPS was unable to develop active and passive security measures that would have aggressively addressed the problem (in general) and perhaps precluded one particular idiot from stealing 400+ firearms. Perhaps they tried, but just couldn't stop the problem...if so, I don't think they tried hard enough.
To say "...we just won't ship them via ground anymore..." ignores the problem completely and slaps gundealers, manufactuers, smiths and shooters in the face/pocket.
Bottomline, I think Gale McMillan's approach in another thread may re-focus their attention...go with another shipper for ALL his needs.
Mike
http://www.ups.com/news/19991007handguns.html From the horse's mouth.
With respect to all posters, I initiated this thread: (a) to verify if the radio news story I heard early Thursday was correct (in essence, it was) and (b) to glean information re alternative transshipment methods. Subsequent posts indicate that UPS Overnight/Next-Day and RPS are still available. Can anyone comment on FedEx or any US Postal Service channel (registered mail, express mail, etc.)?
Incidentally, for whatever it's worth, I'm quite disappointed UPS opted to do this, but they are a private enterprise and this decision certainly is a legitimate business alternative.
Sincere thanks for all the information.
Incidentally, for whatever it's worth, I'm quite disappointed UPS opted to do this, but they are a private enterprise and this decision certainly is a legitimate business alternative.
Sincere thanks for all the information.
Danger Dave
New member
Back on thread....
I don't think the USPS will ship firearms at all, I'm certain they won't ship ammo. Now, them being a government entity (unlike UPS), I believe that they have no right to refuse to ship any legal substance. Then again, if you think UPS has poor security, you ain't seen nothing yet!
I'm disappointed with their decision, too, but if it helps narrow the list of suspects when something comes up missing, it should be worth it (it should help but some dirtbags behind bars where they belong).
I don't think the USPS will ship firearms at all, I'm certain they won't ship ammo. Now, them being a government entity (unlike UPS), I believe that they have no right to refuse to ship any legal substance. Then again, if you think UPS has poor security, you ain't seen nothing yet!
I'm disappointed with their decision, too, but if it helps narrow the list of suspects when something comes up missing, it should be worth it (it should help but some dirtbags behind bars where they belong).
First, I'll have to agree with the fact that UPS is a business in the business of making money.
No, they are Not our antigun enemy.
Nevertheless, the fact that they will not catch a thief long before that 400+ gun is stolen is a POLICY OR MANAGERIAL PROBLEM. NOT due to the ones doing business with them...the gun purchasing and selling victims.
IF the same individual or group got away with that many theft, someone higher up in the policy making dept. is at fault as well. UPS has shot themself in the foot IMHO!
I do not like shipping through the US postal "service" for the reason that they charge sooo much and I still run into problems with incompetants loosing priority packages, without so much as an appology after I loose valuable time and money trying to find out where it went. If UPS makes a money grubbing, grabbing policy which drives up their profit and OUR costs due to THEIR lack of business responsibility, I say thank RPS for the times they do a fine job and encourage them to keep their employees honest and prices low. I think that the only ones that would be in a position to ever respond to such encouragement would be the top brass, though.
Rich, your points are well taken and I agree that the merchants and consumers should give credit where credit is due. I do not feel guilty nor do I think that I and the gun community (consumers/merchants) are the least bit responsible for their descisions to charge us higher premiums, though. I don't think that they sit around the board rooms and say to themselves, "Those people wanting those HANDGUN shipments sure are an ungrateful bunch!
Maybe we should soak it to them. That'll teach 'em." 
But I certainly agree with your fine attitude and DO think it matters on the local level with certain SMALL businesses.
"Boycotts and Thank U's" I don't think have much effective response unless it is in an organized way directed to the policy makers. By the way, I do Thank every delivery man and boycott, by my lack of business and complaints, and follow ups, etc., businesses that mess up and could care less. I do this by withdrawing business from them. Does it do any good when dealing with major corporations like UPS or govt businesses like USPS? I don't think so. Its got to be organized and directed at the top brass, not folks like the opperators who answer the phones or delivery guys, FWIW.
If UPS wants to play that business game, they lose my business. We are both free to choose who we do business with. I just hope that the competition is more honest, reliable, and cost effective for those of us here.
The statements above are simply my own opinions for what they are worth. An underlying point is that competition of major services is usually a very good thing for us consumers. When monopolies exist, not that UPS is a true monoploly, they can yank our chain anyway they want to. All that we can do is bark. Individually, there's not much bite against a big corporation, like UPS. Collectively, maybe. But wait!, Is there another mailman in town? We don't need to bark at him.
------------------
"But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip; and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." -Jesus Christ (Luke 22:36, see John 3:15-18)
[This message has been edited by EQUALIZER (edited October 11, 1999).]
No, they are Not our antigun enemy.
Nevertheless, the fact that they will not catch a thief long before that 400+ gun is stolen is a POLICY OR MANAGERIAL PROBLEM. NOT due to the ones doing business with them...the gun purchasing and selling victims.
IF the same individual or group got away with that many theft, someone higher up in the policy making dept. is at fault as well. UPS has shot themself in the foot IMHO!
I do not like shipping through the US postal "service" for the reason that they charge sooo much and I still run into problems with incompetants loosing priority packages, without so much as an appology after I loose valuable time and money trying to find out where it went. If UPS makes a money grubbing, grabbing policy which drives up their profit and OUR costs due to THEIR lack of business responsibility, I say thank RPS for the times they do a fine job and encourage them to keep their employees honest and prices low. I think that the only ones that would be in a position to ever respond to such encouragement would be the top brass, though.
Rich, your points are well taken and I agree that the merchants and consumers should give credit where credit is due. I do not feel guilty nor do I think that I and the gun community (consumers/merchants) are the least bit responsible for their descisions to charge us higher premiums, though. I don't think that they sit around the board rooms and say to themselves, "Those people wanting those HANDGUN shipments sure are an ungrateful bunch!
Maybe we should soak it to them. That'll teach 'em." But I certainly agree with your fine attitude and DO think it matters on the local level with certain SMALL businesses."Boycotts and Thank U's" I don't think have much effective response unless it is in an organized way directed to the policy makers. By the way, I do Thank every delivery man and boycott, by my lack of business and complaints, and follow ups, etc., businesses that mess up and could care less. I do this by withdrawing business from them. Does it do any good when dealing with major corporations like UPS or govt businesses like USPS? I don't think so. Its got to be organized and directed at the top brass, not folks like the opperators who answer the phones or delivery guys, FWIW.
If UPS wants to play that business game, they lose my business. We are both free to choose who we do business with. I just hope that the competition is more honest, reliable, and cost effective for those of us here.
The statements above are simply my own opinions for what they are worth. An underlying point is that competition of major services is usually a very good thing for us consumers. When monopolies exist, not that UPS is a true monoploly, they can yank our chain anyway they want to. All that we can do is bark. Individually, there's not much bite against a big corporation, like UPS. Collectively, maybe. But wait!, Is there another mailman in town? We don't need to bark at him.
------------------
"But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip; and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." -Jesus Christ (Luke 22:36, see John 3:15-18)
[This message has been edited by EQUALIZER (edited October 11, 1999).]
Rich (and others) I hear what you're saying, HOWEVER!!:
Prohibiting normal shipment of handguns does not solve the real problem, now, does it?
Care to ship your 18K Rolex by UPS? Thanx, I'd rather take the week off and deliver mine by car. Like to ship your wife's grandmother's 2 carat engagement diamond ring for repair via UPS? I think not, thank you. I'm not certain I'd like to ship an order of grapefruit via a company whose reaction to thefts by its own employees is to prohibit shipment of the goods stolen (so far), simply forcing a change in theft priorities to something else.
Ya'll are right, they can do what they want as a private company, and I can do what I want as a consumer. They have admitted their incompetence and refused to even attempt improvement. When possible, I'll find a different shipper.
Prohibiting normal shipment of handguns does not solve the real problem, now, does it?
Care to ship your 18K Rolex by UPS? Thanx, I'd rather take the week off and deliver mine by car. Like to ship your wife's grandmother's 2 carat engagement diamond ring for repair via UPS? I think not, thank you. I'm not certain I'd like to ship an order of grapefruit via a company whose reaction to thefts by its own employees is to prohibit shipment of the goods stolen (so far), simply forcing a change in theft priorities to something else.
Ya'll are right, they can do what they want as a private company, and I can do what I want as a consumer. They have admitted their incompetence and refused to even attempt improvement. When possible, I'll find a different shipper.
Rich Lucibella
Staff
Larry P-
Amen. My point exactly. Vote with your feet. No need to defend them as a "good" business or attack them as a part of a conspiracy. Let the market decide.
I'm told that CompUSA is in Chapter 11 while Home Depot thrives....both on the same market strategy. If true, I say "Praise the Powers". In the case of CompUSA, Great Concept but Terrible Execution. Let the market decide.
Rich
Amen. My point exactly. Vote with your feet. No need to defend them as a "good" business or attack them as a part of a conspiracy. Let the market decide.
I'm told that CompUSA is in Chapter 11 while Home Depot thrives....both on the same market strategy. If true, I say "Praise the Powers". In the case of CompUSA, Great Concept but Terrible Execution. Let the market decide.
Rich
GUN OWNERS ALLIANCE
!!ALERT!!
Chris W. Stark - Director
P.O. Box 1924
Crosby, Texas 77532-1924
Ph. (281) 787-4111 Fax (281) 328-7505
http://www.GOA-Texas.org
email: Director@GOA-Texas.org
10/14/1999
--------
Great news! Alternative Shipper Found! Boycott lives on!
Copyright =A9 1999 by Gun Owners Alliance (GOA-Texas).
Republication permitted ONLY if this e-mail alert
is left intact in its original state.
Our last alert proclaimed that the decision makers of UPS & RPS had
maliciously conspired against the Bill of Rights by agreeing in perfect
unison to stop regular ground shipments of handguns, and force handgun
dealers to pay up to 5 times more for next day priority delivery.
Airborne Express completely stopped ALL shipments of all firearms,
during this same period.
Talk about timing.
UPS claimed to be doing this "to maximize the in-transit security of
handgun shipments by minimizing their overall transit time." In other
words, they haven't been able to keep their employees from stealing
guns, even though no consideration of just making the package size
requirement for handgun shipments larger (to prevent the package from
being slipped under a UPS employees jacket). RPS & Airborne Express
have not even issued an official statement to explain why they followed
UPS just two days after UPS started this attack on the 2nd amendment.
If you have not read the previous alerts on this topic, just reply to
this alert, and request that we send you the previous alerts.
The boycott we originally proposed (before RPS & Airborne Express decided
to commit the crime of Collusion and Unlawfully Restraining Trade with
UPS), fell flat on its face when the above mentioned shippers turned
against us. After all, who do we turn to when there seems to be no one
else that will ship firearms at a reasonable rate?
But there is a silver lining in every cloud! And in the place where we
figured it would never be! We have found an alternative shipper, and at
very reasonable prices!
HOW ABOUT THE UNITED STATES POSTAL SERVICE?
You say no way? That is what I said at first! I couldn't believe it!
I called the United States Postal Service (USPS) today. Even had their
postal regulations faxed to me regarding the shipping of firearms, and
here is the scoop:
USPS regulation DMM Issue 54, January 10, 1999, section C-024 (page C-37)
found at 1.3, Authorized Persons: "Subject to 1.4, handguns may be mailed
by a licensed manufacturer of firearms, a licensed dealer of firearms, or
an authorized agent of the federal government......."
Jumping to page C-38, to 1.5, Manufacturers and Dealers: "Handguns may
also be mailed between licensed manufacturers of firearms and licensed
dealers of firearms in customary trade shipments, or for repairing or
replacing parts."
Same page (C-38) at 1.6, Certificate of Manufacturers and Dealers: "A
licensed manufacturer or dealer need not file the affidavit under 1.4,
but must file with the postmaster a statement on Form 1508 signed by the
mailer that he or she is a licensed manufacturer or dealer of firearms,
that the parcels containing handguns (or major components thereof) are
customary trade shipments or contain such articles for repairing or
replacing parts, and that to the best of his or her knowledge or belief
the addressees are licensed manufacturers or dealers of firearms."
Now, lets go to page C-39, at 3.0, Rifles and Shotguns: "....the mailer
may be required by the USPS to establish, by opening the parcel or by
written certification, that the gun is unloaded and not precluded by
1.1e." [note from Chris Stark: 1.1e is the 1968 GCA minimal length for
a shotgun of 18", and 16" length for rifles. I asked USPS how often
people ship guns with them. He said it was not at all uncommon, and
it is not often they ever require a package to be opened for inspection!]
Even better, same page (C-39) at 6.0, PROHIBITED PARCEL MARKING: "For
any parcel containing a firearm or a ballistic or switchblade knife,
any marking that indicates the contents is not permitted on the outside
wrapper or container."
Now you ask, "But what about prices?" This is where it gets good!
The rates that apply to any parcel, apply to firearms!! One example
of MANY:
Priority mail for a HUGE HANDGUN (Desert Eagle?) weighing 5 lb. (?)
is only going to cost you $6.50! Insurance? $400.00 worth of insurance
costs about $4.65! Want to require an adult signature? Certify the
package for about $2.00! Grand total: $13.15! And this is for a HUGE
gun! Most weight much less! and, THE USPS WILL PROVIDE FREE OF CHARGE,
most of the priority package containers you need, and ship them to your
place of business or residence, free of charge!
Get the picture? THE BOYCOTT LIVES AND YOU NOW HAVE AN ALTERNATE WAY
TO SHIP ALL OF YOUR PACKAGES, FIREARMS OR NOT!
For more information call the USPS 24 hour information line at:
1-800-275-8777
For free USPS shipping supplies & containers, call:
1-800-527-1950
AND REMEMBER TO CONTACT UPS, RPS & AIRBORNE EXPRESS, AND TELL THEM
GOODBYE! SEE YOU LATER ALLIGATOR! NICE MEETING YOU! HOPE YOU HAVE
A GREAT LIFE! DON'T CALL US, WE'LL CALL YOU!
Here are some UPS e-mail addresses to tell them the good news:
National Media Relations - Norman Black
Voice - 404-828-7593
Pager - 888-856-8816
E-Mail - norman.black@ups.com
International Media Relations - John Flick
Voice - 404-828-6346
E-Mail - jflick@ups.com
Reputation Management - Peggy Gardner
Voice - 404-828-6051
E-Mail - pgardner@ups.com
Marketing and Olympics - Susan Rosenberg
Voice - 404-828-6130
E-Mail - srosenberg@ups.com
Executive Communications - Steve Soltis
Voice - 404-828-4029
E-Mail - ssoltis@ups.com
Public Affairs - Tad Segal
Voice - 202-675-3381
E-Mail - tsegal@corpmail.ups.com
Information Technology - Joan Schnorbus
Voice - 201-828-4937
E-Mail - com1jns@is.ups.com
Louisville, Kentucky
UPS Airline - Ken Shapero
Voice - 502-329-6522
E-Mail - air2kes@air.ups.com
Here is the RPS e-mail WEB FORM to tell them the good news:
http://www.shiprps.com/cgi-win/rcu100ex.exe?func=3Dentry
(previous e-mail address we gave for RPS has been blocked!)
Here are some AIRBORNE EXPRESS e-mail addresses to tell them the
good news:
cac.web@airborne.com
webmaster@airborne.com
THE BOYCOTT LIVES ON!!!
!!ALERT!!
Chris W. Stark - Director
P.O. Box 1924
Crosby, Texas 77532-1924
Ph. (281) 787-4111 Fax (281) 328-7505
http://www.GOA-Texas.org
email: Director@GOA-Texas.org
10/14/1999
--------
Great news! Alternative Shipper Found! Boycott lives on!
Copyright =A9 1999 by Gun Owners Alliance (GOA-Texas).
Republication permitted ONLY if this e-mail alert
is left intact in its original state.
Our last alert proclaimed that the decision makers of UPS & RPS had
maliciously conspired against the Bill of Rights by agreeing in perfect
unison to stop regular ground shipments of handguns, and force handgun
dealers to pay up to 5 times more for next day priority delivery.
Airborne Express completely stopped ALL shipments of all firearms,
during this same period.
Talk about timing.
UPS claimed to be doing this "to maximize the in-transit security of
handgun shipments by minimizing their overall transit time." In other
words, they haven't been able to keep their employees from stealing
guns, even though no consideration of just making the package size
requirement for handgun shipments larger (to prevent the package from
being slipped under a UPS employees jacket). RPS & Airborne Express
have not even issued an official statement to explain why they followed
UPS just two days after UPS started this attack on the 2nd amendment.
If you have not read the previous alerts on this topic, just reply to
this alert, and request that we send you the previous alerts.
The boycott we originally proposed (before RPS & Airborne Express decided
to commit the crime of Collusion and Unlawfully Restraining Trade with
UPS), fell flat on its face when the above mentioned shippers turned
against us. After all, who do we turn to when there seems to be no one
else that will ship firearms at a reasonable rate?
But there is a silver lining in every cloud! And in the place where we
figured it would never be! We have found an alternative shipper, and at
very reasonable prices!
HOW ABOUT THE UNITED STATES POSTAL SERVICE?
You say no way? That is what I said at first! I couldn't believe it!
I called the United States Postal Service (USPS) today. Even had their
postal regulations faxed to me regarding the shipping of firearms, and
here is the scoop:
USPS regulation DMM Issue 54, January 10, 1999, section C-024 (page C-37)
found at 1.3, Authorized Persons: "Subject to 1.4, handguns may be mailed
by a licensed manufacturer of firearms, a licensed dealer of firearms, or
an authorized agent of the federal government......."
Jumping to page C-38, to 1.5, Manufacturers and Dealers: "Handguns may
also be mailed between licensed manufacturers of firearms and licensed
dealers of firearms in customary trade shipments, or for repairing or
replacing parts."
Same page (C-38) at 1.6, Certificate of Manufacturers and Dealers: "A
licensed manufacturer or dealer need not file the affidavit under 1.4,
but must file with the postmaster a statement on Form 1508 signed by the
mailer that he or she is a licensed manufacturer or dealer of firearms,
that the parcels containing handguns (or major components thereof) are
customary trade shipments or contain such articles for repairing or
replacing parts, and that to the best of his or her knowledge or belief
the addressees are licensed manufacturers or dealers of firearms."
Now, lets go to page C-39, at 3.0, Rifles and Shotguns: "....the mailer
may be required by the USPS to establish, by opening the parcel or by
written certification, that the gun is unloaded and not precluded by
1.1e." [note from Chris Stark: 1.1e is the 1968 GCA minimal length for
a shotgun of 18", and 16" length for rifles. I asked USPS how often
people ship guns with them. He said it was not at all uncommon, and
it is not often they ever require a package to be opened for inspection!]
Even better, same page (C-39) at 6.0, PROHIBITED PARCEL MARKING: "For
any parcel containing a firearm or a ballistic or switchblade knife,
any marking that indicates the contents is not permitted on the outside
wrapper or container."
Now you ask, "But what about prices?" This is where it gets good!
The rates that apply to any parcel, apply to firearms!! One example
of MANY:
Priority mail for a HUGE HANDGUN (Desert Eagle?) weighing 5 lb. (?)
is only going to cost you $6.50! Insurance? $400.00 worth of insurance
costs about $4.65! Want to require an adult signature? Certify the
package for about $2.00! Grand total: $13.15! And this is for a HUGE
gun! Most weight much less! and, THE USPS WILL PROVIDE FREE OF CHARGE,
most of the priority package containers you need, and ship them to your
place of business or residence, free of charge!
Get the picture? THE BOYCOTT LIVES AND YOU NOW HAVE AN ALTERNATE WAY
TO SHIP ALL OF YOUR PACKAGES, FIREARMS OR NOT!
For more information call the USPS 24 hour information line at:
1-800-275-8777
For free USPS shipping supplies & containers, call:
1-800-527-1950
AND REMEMBER TO CONTACT UPS, RPS & AIRBORNE EXPRESS, AND TELL THEM
GOODBYE! SEE YOU LATER ALLIGATOR! NICE MEETING YOU! HOPE YOU HAVE
A GREAT LIFE! DON'T CALL US, WE'LL CALL YOU!
Here are some UPS e-mail addresses to tell them the good news:
National Media Relations - Norman Black
Voice - 404-828-7593
Pager - 888-856-8816
E-Mail - norman.black@ups.com
International Media Relations - John Flick
Voice - 404-828-6346
E-Mail - jflick@ups.com
Reputation Management - Peggy Gardner
Voice - 404-828-6051
E-Mail - pgardner@ups.com
Marketing and Olympics - Susan Rosenberg
Voice - 404-828-6130
E-Mail - srosenberg@ups.com
Executive Communications - Steve Soltis
Voice - 404-828-4029
E-Mail - ssoltis@ups.com
Public Affairs - Tad Segal
Voice - 202-675-3381
E-Mail - tsegal@corpmail.ups.com
Information Technology - Joan Schnorbus
Voice - 201-828-4937
E-Mail - com1jns@is.ups.com
Louisville, Kentucky
UPS Airline - Ken Shapero
Voice - 502-329-6522
E-Mail - air2kes@air.ups.com
Here is the RPS e-mail WEB FORM to tell them the good news:
http://www.shiprps.com/cgi-win/rcu100ex.exe?func=3Dentry
(previous e-mail address we gave for RPS has been blocked!)
Here are some AIRBORNE EXPRESS e-mail addresses to tell them the
good news:
cac.web@airborne.com
webmaster@airborne.com
THE BOYCOTT LIVES ON!!!
Brett Bellmore
New member
Personally, I'm glad to give UPS the boot; Last time I sent my Calico into the factory for some warrenty work, UPS just left it sitting on my front porch when it came back, despite the fact that they were supposed to either hand it directly to me or leave a note for pickup. Only the fact that I live in a rural area prevented a really nasty headline.
I do agree that we need a private alternative to the US postal service, since Clinton can shut off that route anytime he wants with an executive order. Why not have the NRA offer it as a service, but only to members? Imagine what a recruiting tool THAT would be!
------------------
Sic semper tyranus!
I do agree that we need a private alternative to the US postal service, since Clinton can shut off that route anytime he wants with an executive order. Why not have the NRA offer it as a service, but only to members? Imagine what a recruiting tool THAT would be!
------------------
Sic semper tyranus!