Firearms on Trains

[divemedic]

From the NRA page:

FIREARMS ABOARD OTHER CARRIERS

Any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce must deliver the unloaded firearm into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor, or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of the trip. Check with each carrier before your trip to avoid problems.

Bus companies generally refuse to transport firearms. Amtrack specifically prohibits the transport or possession of firearms and ammunition both on board and in checked baggage. Other passenger rail companies may also restrict transport or possession; always check with your carrier first.

and if you look at 49CFR173.54, it prohibits loaded firearms on interstate commercial transportation, because they are a prohibited explosive:

TITLE 49--TRANSPORTATION

CHAPTER I--PIPELINE AND HAZARDOUS MATERIALS SAFETY ADMINISTRATION,
DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION

PART 173_SHIPPERS_GENERAL REQUIREMENTS FOR SHIPMENTS AND PACKAGINGS--

Subpart C_Definitions, Classification and Packaging for Class 1

Sec. 173.54 Forbidden explosives.

Unless otherwise provided in this subchapter, the following
explosives shall not be offered for transportation or transported:

(snip out irrelevant parts)

(f) A loaded firearm (except as provided in 49 CFR 1544.219)

 

[Don H]

The NRA quote refers to passengers on commercial passenger transportation, not truck drivers.

49 CFR 173 refers to the shipment of materials, not CCW by truck drivers.

PART 173--SHIPPERS--GENERAL REQUIREMENTS FOR SHIPMENTS AND PACKAGINGS

There is no DOT regulation prohibiting truck drivers from CCW across state lines.

 

[divemedic]

I swear that we were told that in our class, and I know that Michigan has used that in the past to bust CDL drivers. Whether the law means that or not, that is the way some agencies are choosing to apply it.

 

[Don H]

Well, is Michigan using a state law or a federal law to do this?

 

[Musketeer]

I swear that we were told that in our class, and I know that Michigan has used that in the past to bust CDL drivers. Whether the law means that or not, that is the way some agencies are choosing to apply it.

and the handbook from the Suffolk County Police in your pistol permit (to own) manual says it is almost always illegal for you to bring a handgun with you on vacation to another state, not even addressing carrying.

The gov't and its people are both guilty of being liars and idiots.

 

[EOD Guy]

and if you look at 49CFR173.54, it prohibits loaded firearms on interstate commercial transportation, because they are a prohibited explosive:


Quote:
TITLE 49--TRANSPORTATION

CHAPTER I--PIPELINE AND HAZARDOUS MATERIALS SAFETY ADMINISTRATION,
DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION

PART 173_SHIPPERS_GENERAL REQUIREMENTS FOR SHIPMENTS AND PACKAGINGS--

Subpart C_Definitions, Classification and Packaging for Class 1

Sec. 173.54 Forbidden explosives.

Unless otherwise provided in this subchapter, the following
explosives shall not be offered for transportation or transported:

(snip out irrelevant parts)

(f) A loaded firearm (except as provided in 49 CFR 1544.219)

That doesn't apply. An individual, including the driver of a commercial vehicle, carrying a personal firarm is not transporting the firearm "in commerce" so it is not regulated by the DOT. DOT has specifically addressed this very point on their web site.

 

[divemedic]

Are you the same EOD GUY that posts on THR? Cuz if you are, you posted in this thread, and said this:

I asked a DOT inspector at the DOT Training Center in Oklahoma City about this and he stated that he could cite a driver for transporting a loaded firearm in violation of 49CFR 173.54(f). If the firearm was unloaded, there would be no violation.

He noted that the intent of that part of the regulation concerned transportation as part of the cargo, but that the regulation, as written, did not state that. He said he had never heard of a citation being written for that but it could be done. It would be up to the driver, or his company, to appeal the citation.

Have you found something else since you posted there? It seems to me that the law says "The following explosives shall not be... transported," which would agree with what I was told, since the regulation does not specify that the loaded forearm must be part of the cargo.

 

[EOD Guy]

Are you the same EOD GUY that posts on THR? Cuz if you are, you posted in this thread, and said this:


Quote:
Originally Posted by EOD Guy
I asked a DOT inspector at the DOT Training Center in Oklahoma City about this and he stated that he could cite a driver for transporting a loaded firearm in violation of 49CFR 173.54(f). If the firearm was unloaded, there would be no violation.

He noted that the intent of that part of the regulation concerned transportation as part of the cargo, but that the regulation, as written, did not state that. He said he had never heard of a citation being written for that but it could be done. It would be up to the driver, or his company, to appeal the citation.


Have you found something else since you posted there? It seems to me that the law says "The following explosives shall not be... transported," which would agree with what I was told, since the regulation does not specify that the loaded forearm must be part of the cargo.

Yes, I am the same and have to admit that my post was incorrect.

In order to clarify the information, I wrote to the Hazardous Materials Branch of the Department of Transportation concerning a commercial driver's personal firearm. They stated that such a firearm was not being transported "in commerce" and so it was not subject to Federal regulation. They also stated that their answer was coordinated with the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Commission.

 

[divemedic]

See, my point is made. The classes I attended, and the DOT inspector you spoke with both feel that the regulation prohibits a driver from carrying.

In other words, you will probably be arrested, and then it will be up to you to beat the charges.

 

[Musketeer]

OK divemedic, then at what point do you decide "I am perfectly legal here but because some gov't functionary doesn't like it I am going to let them tell me what to do." I am not one to go looking for trouble but if we simply turned tail everytime an "official" got the law wrong we would not even leave our house.

 

[EOD Guy]

See, my point is made. The classes I attended, and the DOT inspector you spoke with both feel that the regulation prohibits a driver from carrying.

In other words, you will probably be arrested, and then it will be up to you to beat the charges.

No, it's not. I was wrong and the DOT inspector did not say it was illegal for the driver to carry. He stated that he thought that part of 49 CFR only applied to the vehicle cargo, not a driver's personal weapon, although it could be misinterpreted.

The question concerning carrying by a driver was answered by both the Office of Hazardous Materials Standards of DOT and the Federal Highway Safety Administration in a reply to a letter written to DOT which is posted on their web site.

Here is a cut and paste of the letter straight from the DOT web site:

August 24, 2006 8/24/2006 - 173.54(f)



Mr. Richard B. ******* Reference No. 06-0165



Dear Mr. *******:

This responds to your letter regarding the applicability of the Hazardous Materials Regulations (HMR; 49 CFR Parts 171- 180) to the transportation of a loaded personal firearm lawfully carried by a commercial motor vehicle operator while in the performance of his or her duties. Specifically, you ask whether the transportation of such a firearm is prohibited by the HMR under the "forbidden explosives" clause in
§ 173.54(f).

The answer to your question is no. Unless otherwise specified in § 173.54(f), a personal loaded or unloaded firearm lawfully carried by a commercial motor vehicle operator is not considered in commerce and therefore not subject to the HMR. Under this scenario, a commercial motor vehicle operator who carries a personal firearm while in the performance of his or her duties is subject to local or State jurisdiction regarding such matters. This response has been coordinated with the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration.

I trust this satisfies your inquiry. Please contact us if we can be of further assistance.

Sincerely,



Hattie L. Mitchell
Chief, Regulatory Review and Reinvention
Office of Hazardous Materials Standards

173.54(f)

 

[divemedic]

I never said that I avoided carry just because I might be arrested. I just think it is important to understand that if you do, you could be the next person to make case law in your circuit, the next Parker. That is up to each gun owner to decide for themselves.

If the law CAN be misinterpreted and pushed to the limit, you better believe that somewhere, there is a cop or a DA that will do it.

Me? I even carry in the Post Office, but that is another topic entirely...