Finding 9mm load to cycle this gun

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I've been handloading for years but just getting started on my first semiauto pistol loads. My first round of loads used 4.4gn Bullseye 1.125" OAL with Berry's plated RN 115 grain bullets. That cycled perfectly in my Ruger LC9S Pro. However, it was unreliable in cycling a Taurus PT111 Millennium G2, giving several stovepipes and failures to feed out of 40 rounds.

My immediate thought was to increase the powder to 4.7 grains of Bullseye (which is a published max in some sources). That seems safe enough according to Quickload (pressure in the 31,000 range). But I'm thinking the real solution will be to go to another powder. So I picked up a pound of Power Pistol and am about to load some rounds with that to try.

Given that the 4.4 grains BE wouldn't reliably cycle the Taurus, what would you suggest as a load for the Power Pistol? Max load seems to be 6.7 grains for jacketed, so I'm thinking I need to stay a few grains below that for plated bullets.

Thanks in advance for your advice.
 
I always follow Western's rule of thumb which is a starting load is -10% of maximum for rifle and -15% of maximum for pistol. That larger number for pistol allows wiggle room for the fact pistol chargers are not as tightly controlled. That is, 0.1 grains is a bigger percent of a pistol charge than it is of a typical rifle charge.

In work-up, you can go up in steps of about 2% of maximum, looking for pressure signs, so I actually start pistol at -14% so it divides up in 8 rounds, which I shoot one at a time with a dummy round following, pausing to examine the case for pressure signs and checking which ones feed the dummy and which don't. Once I get a feed, I continue up the test series, but try not to go back down below 4% more powder than first fed, for a reliability margin. That assumes no pressure signs. It also suggests 4.6 grains of Bullseye might work if your Taurus likes my rule of thumb there. But YMMV.

The maximum charge of PP will recoil more than the maximum charge of BE because there is higher velocity imparted to the bullet, more powder mass to accelerate down the tube, and higher muzzle pressure and therefore more rocket effect. All may help with the Taurus.
 
I'd give the gun a detailed cleaning to make sure it's actually an ammo issue and start with a mid-range load of Power Pistol and see what happens.

I imagine 4.7 grains of BE would probably work fine too. Power Pistol is supposed to be better for loading 9mm but honestly I've have better luck with Bullseye. You could try loading up some rounds of each powder and see which one works better for your gun.
 
"...according to QuickLoad..." That's not a manual. QuickLoad was developed by programmers who very likely have never seen a real firearm.
"...My immediate thought was to increase the powder to..." You do not just increase the powder. You have to work up the load from the starting load. And plated bullets are loaded with cast bullet data. That 4.7 is for a jacketed bullet.
Considering the ammo is fine in the Ruger, the pistol is far more likely to be the cause. Failures to feed are usually a magazine related thing and not the ammo. Start by giving both the pistol and the mags a really good bath. Then tweak the mag lips open a tick with needle nosed pliers.
The stovepipes upon feeding or extraction? The mag lips being in too far at the rear can cause stove piping. However, if they're upon extraction look at the extractor/ejector.
 
I prefer loading 124gr bullets in 9mm. It just seems you have less cycling problems.

Did you actually try and find a good working COL for your Taurus?

Load up a few dummy rounds and make sure you have a COL that will cycle correctly through the Taurus.
 
T. O'Heir said:
QuickLoad was developed by programmers who very likely have never seen a real firearm.
Click to expand...

Nope. QuickLOAD is the work of one man, Hartmut Broemel, who is a leading European ballistics authority who also writes software for the CIP. Dr. Ken Oehler commented in the 24 Hour Campfire that Broemel had probably seen more real pressure data than anybody else. He created the basic program working in a military ballistics lab on 20 mm guns way back in the late sixties. He shared it with other people in the industry for 20 years before his industry friends convinced him to turn it into a consumer product. After all those years of development it works remarkably well, and with feedback from a chronograph it may be tweaked to produce very, very close predictions.

One point Mr. O'Heir has right, though, is that Quickload it is not a load manual. It's own opening screen warns you of that. It does the best job I know of suggesting which powders may be good candidates for a gun and bullet, but cross-check its starting loads before testing. Broemel also says the software was developed with bottleneck cases and doesn't always play as nicely with straight wall cases because the absence of a shoulder directing gases inward toward the base of the neck affects ignition at the top of the powder column. So you especially want to double-check the straight wall load data from QuickLOAD against measured performance from a manufacturer with pressure test barrels.
 
When I'm trying to make a cranky 9mm function, I use Herco, with 5.8/Herco/125LRN to start, and then work up 0.1 gr. at a time to 6.4/Herco. If the pistol will not operate well with the top load, I'd bet a steak dinner that something else is inhibiting function.

Because Power Pistol and Herco are similar in burning speed, I would likely start at 6.1/Power Pistol/125LRN or just under, then work up. If you get within 0.2 gr. of max and cycling hasn't improved, start looking for other causes. If you hit max and still don't have good function, it's very likely not the load that's the culprit.
 
Can you better describe your failure to feed?

If this is your 1st venture with semi auto reloading, a case that has not enough of the flare removed will cause this in a heartbeat. I would first attempt to give your crimping die another half turn or so down and see if that cures your problem. Or maybe mic a factory round at the case mouth then mic one of your reloads. That was my biggest problem when I started loading .45ACP.

Let us know how it turns out.
 
Sometimes you just have to vary the loads, as you are doing, to find the one that will cycle every time. I thought I had that load for my Beretta, and it cycled for me, but my wife will limp wrist that darn pistol and it'll stovepipe on her. I ramped up the load a bit, and it'll cycle reliably now, even if the wife is shooting it. I guess I got the 'limp writing message' to all. Had the 17 year old granddaughter here last weekend. I handed her the Beretta and was about to say something, but she interrupted me and said "I know, Papa, don't limp wrist it". Geez. Anyway...the kid can really shoot. Likes the Beretta, but loves the Python with full power loads.
 
Thanks for the responses everyone.

I certainly don't use Quickload as a load manual. I do use it as my last step to sanity check what I see in the load manuals. As you all probably know, load manuals don't always agree with each other. I did check multiple load manuals before firing up Quickload, as I mentioned in the OP.

T. O'Heir wrote:
> And plated bullets are loaded with cast bullet data.

Not quite true. Berrys says:
> We recommend using hard cast load data or start with mid-range jacketed
> data. Make sure data is below 1250fps unless you are using a Thick-Plated
> bullet...

So there are three factors to consider, according to Berrys. What do the hard cast load data say; what is the mid-range jacketed data; and what is the velocity that the load under consideration would produce. True, 4.7 grains BE is the max load for jacketed rounds according to some load data sources. But I've seen a max of 5.0 grains in other manuals in my library. That's an example of why I check the manuals against Quickload to see what kind of pressures are to be expected.

Anyway, 4.4 grains of BE would certainly qualify as mid range jacketed data, and so would be a reasonable place to start if I'm going to use that powder - working up, making sure to stay below 1250 fps. I'm not comfortable going above 4.7 based on the collection of manuals I've checked, so that just gives me 4.5, 4.6, and 4.7 to try. But... I really think a slower powder would be a better solution.

The Taurus fired a full 100 round box of Federal Champion 115 grain range ammo without hiccup, using the same magazines as for my reloads. So it seems to me that Bullseye is just giving too quick of a pop to cycle it properly. I think I probably need to try a slower powder.

Alliant's load data for Power Pistol shows 6.7 grains max, for 1212 fps and OAL of 1.125" with 115 grain Speer Gold Dot. Using Unclenick's recommendation, 15% below max would be 5.7 grains as a starting load. Does that sound satisfactory? And is there a reasonable chance that this will cycle the Taurus that balked at 4.4 grains of BE?
 
849ACSO asked:
> Can you better describe your failure to feed?

On maybe four out of 40 rounds, the slide locked open without stripping the next round into the chamber.

These rounds were sized with the Lee Factory Size & Crimp die in the last loading step, with a medium taper crimp. They passed the barrel drop test in my Ruger and they cycled perfectly in the Ruger.

Editing to add: OAL was 1.125"
 
So............. does the slide even begin to strip the fresh round?

Is the face of the stripper bar on the bottom of the slide against the back of the top round in the mag?

Does ANY of the nose of the bullet make it past the front of the mag and onto/past the feed ramp?
 
The fresh round never moves from its resting place in the magazine. I'm not 100% certain about whether it has been touched by the slide, because the shooter immediately racked the slide and continued shooting.

He did mention later that he thought the magazine was not locked in properly on at least one of those occasions. So that would obviously not be an ammo issue.
 
I would say if the empty is being ejected clear of the gun, the problem is either:

A) The shooter (since you imply it's not you) has a grip that's hitting the slide stop during recoil and locking the slide back

or

B) The magazine has a burr or deformity that's giving just enough resistance to not allow the recoil spring to force the occasional round out from under the feed lips of the magazine.

or

C) The gun is filthy.

EDIT: I'm assuming the action is open and not closed on an empty chamber. If it's closed on an empty chamber, that's another thought process.................

If the empty is being thrown clear, it's likely not your reloads and is either shooter or equipment induced.
 
My thinking is that its not the load, but a pistol malfunction-the magazine or the slide stop engaging maybe?

If it was the load, the malfunctions would be consistent, and not just a few here and there.

I assume your Ruger cycles these same loads reliably.
 
I suggest getting rid of the Taurus. In my opinion, it's useless to have a gun that will only cycle certain loads.
 
The shooter is my son-in-law who is an experienced revolver shooter but this is his first experience with a semi-auto pistol.

First he shot 100 rounds of the Federal factory ammo without any failures. Then he shot my 40 reloads and encountered the troubles.

I can attest that the gun wasn't filthy before he started shooting. After 100 rounds of bulk ammo? I don't know... but then after shooting the reloads, he shot several magazines full of Magtech 115 grain ammo with no issues. So it seems apparent to me that the problem is with the reloads.

And yes, the Ruger cycles the reloads just fine.
 
I had same problem. Sounds like slide is not going back far enough. You can either increase powder load or lighten the recoil spring on the slide
 
9mm loads

I use 6.0 gr Power Pistol with 115gr Hornady Action Pistol bullets and both my M&P full size and Walther CCP run without a fault so I would still suspect your pistol has a problem. My way of thinking is you shouldn't have to run full power loads in a pistol to have it run right. But that is just my opinion.
 
While you're looking around for the cause of the problem, you MIGHT just keep shooting the pistol with whatever ammo works. Eventually, the part that's causing the problem may either "wear in", or quit. That's not the way I like to troubleshoot, but I've seen it work in the past.

I've ALSO inadvertently "fixed" a number of pistols by pulling them apart, looking for a problem, not finding it, reassembling the piece and shooting the heck out of it. Beats me what I'm doing, but I wish I could bottle it and sell it!
 
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