Fighting a maniac with a samurai sword

P

Para Bellum

New member
Hi everybody,

today a guy entered a church in Germany with a samurai sword. He killed one hurt three more seriously, one is struggling to survive. You will find the original German news-report below. Maybe some of you understand it.

What strikes me is that the police used pepper spray to stop him. They seem to trust it with their lifes. I would never rely on pepper spray if I'd face a samurai sword. I would draw my G19 immediately and fire until he falls. Having 20 years of martial arts behind me (and a samurai sword in my closet) I know what a devastating and fast weapon this is. Just think that you must get close to about 5m (15-18ft) to use pepper spray. With a samurai sword you can cross this distance in one second and split your opponent's head.

Could I be I wrong? Would you also dare to rely on pepper spray? Or is it even faster stopping a guy with pepper spray than with a handgun?

PS: Even in my hometown (Vienna/Austria) a guy ran amok with a samurai sword last fall. He hurt several people badly. The news then did not give information on how the Austrian Police stopped and arrested this guy, but they did so without killing him. Pepper spray again?
Source: http://wien.orf.at/oesterreich.orf?read=detail&channel=1&id=347514

Source: http://www.orf.at/ticker/177819.html?tmp=8170
Ein Toter nach Amoklauf in Stuttgarter Kirche

Übersicht

Bei einem Amoklauf in einer evangelisch- methodistischen Kirche in Stuttgart ist heute ein Mensch getötet worden. Mehrere Menschen wurden verletzt, drei davon schwer. Eine Frau soll in Lebensgefahr schweben. Der Täter wurde festgenommen.

Nach Polizeiangaben feierten in der Kirche zum Tatzeitpunkt Dutzende Gläubige - vor allem Tamilen und Inder - einen Gottesdienst. Der 25-jährige Täter, angeblich ebenfalls Tamile, stürmte in das Gotteshaus und schlug mit einem Samuraischwert um sich.

"Bild des Grauens"

"Abgeschlagene Gliedmaßen liegen in der Kirche herum", sagte eine Sprecherin der Polizei. Die Beamten hätten "ein Bild des Grauens vorgefunden". Die Polizei überwältigte den Täter mit Pfefferspray. Das Tatmotiv liege vermutlich in seiner familiären Situation, sagte ein Polizeisprecher.

Die Polizei war von Anrainern der Kirche alarmiert worden, die am Nachmittag kurz vor 16.00 Uhr sehr lautes Geschrei aus der Kirche gehört hatten. 65 geschockte Gottesdienstbesucher wurden von den Einsatzkräften betreut. Angeblich soll der Mann schon früher Kirchenbesucher bedroht haben.
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Sorry Para Bellum... my German is a little fuzzy. But, I get the gist of what you are saying. I would not intentionally trust my life to pepper spray unless that is all that I had. I would rather RUN! :)

From a US perspective, I believe this points out that there are other weapons that have very devistating consequences associated with them other than a hand gun or "assult rifle" when in the hands of a lunatic or person set on killing. We actually have a law which limits blade length to 6" (I believe) for carrying a knife. I believe the sword probably exceeds that a tad. Switch blade knives are also illegal to carry here, but not own.
 
Edp?

If the guy was an EDP, the police were lucky. Water has about the same effect as OC has on many EDPs.

EDPs are not normally effected by pain either.
 
One dead after rampage in Stuttgart church.

People died today during a rampage in an Evangelist-methodist church in Stuttgart. Several people were hurt, three seriously. One woman is in critical condition. The attacker was arrested.

According to police information dozens of Glaeubige [What the heck is a Glaeubige?] - all Tamilen and Indian - were celebrating a service in the church at the time of the incident. The 25-year old suspect, allegedly also Tamile, stormed into the place of worship and struck with a Samurai sword.

"Picture of horror"

"Victims lay around the church", said a police spokeswoman. The officials found "a picture of horror". The police overwhelmed the attacker with pepper spray. The motive for the act is probably of a family nature, said a police spokesperson. The police had been alerted by neighbors of the church, that had briefly heard very loud shouting from the church in the afternoon before 4 p.m. 65 shocked service visitors were cared for by the task forces. Allegedly the man has already threatened church visitors in the past.
 
Could I be I wrong? Would you also dare to rely on pepper spray? Or is it even faster stopping a guy with pepper spray than with a handgun?
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In at least one case pepper spray had no effect whatsoever on the killer. The police officer relying on the spray paid with his life.

So I would answer your questions as follows: Yes, never, and not even close.

I place pepper spray in the condiment category somewhere below "Warning Shot".
 
I'm reminded of the scene from the ol' "Surviving Edged Weapons" vid where the cops apporach the house and one of them is gutted by a guy on the other side of the door by means of a BIG, two-handed, medieval knight n' chopper poked through the mail slot in the door. :eek: Bladed weapons are deadly. Period.

As for the question of OC spray? Sure - I'd use it if I could be assured a buddy with unquestionable abilities and equipment were backing me with a 12 ga and I had reasonable obstacles between me and the swordsman that'd allow my use of OC but not his use of the sword... Can't think of any such circumstances off hand, but anything's possible.
 
It's all part of the "small arms control" that Europe has embraced due to the UN's treaty (of which I wouldn't be surprised to find out that they signed) regulating small arms.

Small arms are "eeeevvvvviiiiiiillllll" and should be banned :barf: .

This just goes to prove that it's not the tool used but the person that creates the murder and the mayhem.

My thoughts go out to those that were attacked, but you'd think that the People would wake up and find that they are just sheep for the slaughter when it comes to arms laws.

Wayne
 
And just what good do such laws do that ban blades with greater than 6" lengths? Boxcutters were the instument of choice in the worse terrorist action I know of... Besides, anyone seen the movie "Sling Blade?" Bladed weapons can be had anywhere and cannot be legislated effectively.

<Best throaty crasy guy impression on>"MmHmmm. Some folks calls it a Kaiser Blade. I calls it a Sling Blade..."<Best throaty crazy guy impression off>
 
There are quite a few crazies out there for sure. I've heard that at least 1 in 4 people have some psycholgical problems. Check out 3 of your friends. If they are all normal, the nut case must be you. I try to surround myself with wackos so I lower my chances of me being the crack pot. (I'm just kidding about everything I wrote so don't go CRAZY one me) :p :eek: :D

I hate to sound like an anti gunner but the St. Pete atricle make me think the pawn shop employee was lucky the other guy was carrying a sword rather than the .357 he had bought. I'd rather be stabbed than shot with a .357.

As for the rampage with the sword, I also feel it is fortunate that it was a contact weapon rather than a high capacity firearm. At least you have a chance to run. There is no out running bullets and stray bullets still kill.

I guess this reaffirms that thread about carrying in church. What is this world coming to???

One other thing, what the heck were the cops thinking when the pepper sprayed him? Germany produces some of the finest weapons in the world and they hit him pepper spray. I would spray him too... with hot lead that is! I know contact weapons are deadly and I have no sympathy for someone who has just gone on a killing spree. If that person is criminally insane, I'm sorry. the world is a safer place without him.
 
Sure - I'd use it if I could be assured a buddy with unquestionable abilities and equipment were backing me with a 12 ga and I had reasonable obstacles between me and the swordsman that'd allow my use of OC but not his use of the sword... Can't think of any such circumstances off hand, but anything's possible.
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maybe they were several cops holding him at gunpoint with rifles and one peppered him down. Our (Austrian, neighouring country to Germany) SWAT-Teams (COBRA and WEGA) would use the Steyr AUG .223 for this. If any other scenario actually was the case, the cop was either nuts or bruce lee.

"Gläubige"
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is German for "Believers" = people who attend service at a church or similar places...

This is what happened in Florida with a samuri sword several yaers ago...
http://www.sptimes.com/News/092700/..._turns_in.shtml
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Thank you for the info. Just for the sake of accuracy. That blade was a Ninja-sword. Ninja-swords are a bit shorter than samurai-swords and have a straight and not curved blade. You couldn't care less? Me neither. Some of the extremely useless info that sometimes gets memorized by my brain while the important stuff doesn't :o
 
Well, I probably could care less, but not much. Even so, it is an interesting point of fact. I, myself, would not have had any idea of the difference. My terminology came from the story. That was the best I had to use. Either way, they are fairly long instruments. Sadly, folks like me who are out of the Samuri-Ninja loop will default to seemingly generic but technically incorrect terminology. Just as soon as I get my ninja crosstraining, then samuri, I will be a dangerous ronin.

Here is the link to the story on TFL. I retried the link above to check the facts and it would not go through for me for some reason. Just in case others have issues with it, here is the TFL version... http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39634&highlight=pawn+sword
 
Polizei usually gets it right.

Having lived in Germany for over five years while a member of Uncle Sugar's Great Shebang, the US Army, I gotta tell you, Polizei usually gets it right. They don't make too many mistakes. Additionally, there is no such thing as police brutality. The concept is foreign to them. If a policeman needs to smack you, he will, and the Rathaus backs him up.

So, if they used pepper spray, I'm sure they knew what they were doing, and how to apply it. (Also, do we know if it's the same strength we have here?)
 
Well I personally would much rather take my chances in the gun vs. sword scenario instead of the pepper spray vs. sword. I have heard before that pepper spray does not sting some people as much as others. I have no idea if thats true.

While we're on the subject of swords, I'd also like to point out that guns get alot of bad publicity in the media yet I would pose this simple question: Would you rather be hacked to death than shot? Guns are much more humane than how they used to do it. Never mind the spiked clubs et al.
 
i recall seeing a video where a guy with a sword was stopped using high pressure water (fire hose) and a ladder (to pin him)...pretty incredible.
 
Liddy, that was in Seattle. The pinko police chief allowed the sword weilding nut job to cripple the city all day. While they "talked"* with him. :rolleyes:

About 12 blocks away were at least 30 square miles worth of fishing net. They could have netted the nutjob with about a half-hour's worth of time and almost no effort.

Instead it cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to capture a patient who went off his meds. :rolleyes:



*The poor guy was talking in Klingon or something. Nothing they could have said to him was going to help.
 
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Like the other guy said, I'm keeping pepper spray in the "condiments" category.

If I'm being attacked with lethal force, I'm responding with lethal force.

Only other option I see for this scenario (and that's not always a guarantee) is Taser.

-38SnubFan
 
Remember History....

When the US Marine corps first engaged the Moro "rebels" in the Philippines pre-1911, even their .38 special did not contain enough stopping power to bring down a fanatic running at full speed with their machete's.

This is the very reason why the .45 1911 pistol and round were invented. So following logic, obviously having a .38 pistol is better than just carrying pepper spray, why would you use such a woe-fully inadequate weapon against a sword wielding maniac...?

Pitiful as the usually efficient German Police usually carry HK's, and this would have been a classic MP5 vs Katana battle.
 
Could I be I wrong? Would you also dare to rely on pepper spray? Or is it even faster stopping a guy with pepper spray than with a handgun?
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No, I would go for slide lock. Mine is sharp as a razor and could take a head off in one sweep. In the hands of someone who knows how to use it I would expect the body count to be much higher. The point is "How would you know"?
 
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