Fiancee's Sidearm - Advice Sought

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Anthony

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Hello,

My fiancee is in need of a handgun and I wanted to bounce something off of a few of you. She's 5 feet tall with very small hands as well as little upperbody strength. Till now, her favorite handgun to shoot was a stock Browning Hi-Power 9mm; however, as she does not have requisite strength to vigorously rack the slide I worry about her being armed with a single action auto that would be kept in a drawer for home defense most of the time. In a panic situation she might not be able to chamber a round in time.

Today at lunch I noticed a local gunshop was emptying out their tons of Smith & Wesson revolvers (stocking dealer) that they bought over the years. They had an "old" brand new Model 10 in .38 Special with a skinny five inch barrel, no shroud, bright nickel finish, semi-partridge serrated front sight, and color case hardened hammer and trigger. Very elegant, beautiful, light, handy, and a classic. They wanted $370 for it which seemed fair for what it was.

It seemed like an ideal all around choice for her. She could use it for plinking, target shooting, self defense, and competition. The nickel finish is flamboyant (like her) and makes the gun look BIG to a BG. The five inch barrel minimizes blast, maximizes velocity, gives a long sight radius for accurate shooting, and gives the piece and elegant look to it. The K-frame grip fits most people very well. The action can be honed to a sweet poundage that's downright lovely.

Opinions? Criticisms?

Didn't Smith & Wesson zero their Model 10s for 158-grain ammo? Were they usually zeroed well?

- Anthony
 
Based on her description a revolver is probably best. Maybe narrwo the selection down for het to 2 or 3 and let her pick based on how the gun feels in her hand. S&W doe smake some nice 5 & 6 shot revolvers.

One more thing. Get a .357 and load it with .38 Special. This will give her the "big gun" look, adequate power and a reduced recoil due to the heavier 357 frame and construction. Good luck.

CMOS
 
Anthony: Sounds like an excellent choice for the lady, and a great buy on one of the great fighting handguns of all time. The five inch versions haven't been made in years, IIRC. I assume the bore and cylinders are in great shape?

If so, it's a keeper...should handle .38 Special +P with no trouble. Yeah, it was most likely sighted in at factory with 158gr lead RN as that was THE load for police for so many years.
 
Anthony:

Don't get the revolver - yet.

My wife is actually shorter than yours (4'11") and is about 85 lbs wet. When we went searching for guns for her she could not PROPERLY grip even the small 5 shot revolvers in .38 and still pull the long DA trigger. Your wife is small like mine, and she probably has small hands. Small hands on a revolver are usually not a good match because the DA trigger pull is stiff, and it may be difficult for yours to properly grip that gun AND for her to get a proper purchase on the trigger.

Mine ended up picking, after trying out dozens of guns, a Browning HP in .40 SW. This gun has extremely tight recoil springs, and she could not even cycle them at first. But she practiced and is pretty darn good now.

Here is how we did it: First I instilled in her the FACT that cycling an auto is less about strength, and mostly about technique. Second I got out my CZ-83 and let her cycle this a bunch of times, then I pulled out the HK P7, same thing, then the Colt Delta Elite - progressively stiffer springs. When I pulled out the Browning she understood the TECHNIQUE so well she cycled a 10 round mag through it (dummies) with nary a burp.

I think before you go out and buy another gun, teach her how to cycle that Browning. Be patient and help her. I bet she can do it. My gal is very small and is not that strong, but she manhandles that .40 cal Browning now like a pro. Don't sell her short. Build her confidence with an easier gun at first, and I betcha she can handle that Browning like a pro too.

Tom

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Don't Tread on Me

Why 10mm beats .45 ACP . . .
www.greent.com/40Page/ammo/10/10mm-advoc.htm
 
My GF is tiny, too. She uses a PPK/s, but has considered Kahr9 or 40. I also noticed that Taurus revolvers (85 and the like) have lighter trigger pull than S&W equivalents.

On racking: the trick I was taught is to use shoulders, not wrists. Also, guns with sharp parts on the slide (safeties, etc.) are harder on hands than those with clean slides.
 
If you want an auto option, you might check out the Beretta's with the tip-up barrels. I think they've got a .380 version out now. Taurus has some of these same designs available too.
 
I'm not as small as your fiancee, but I personally prefer autos over revos. If the HiPower is too stiff, try getting some Wolff reduced power springs and lighter loads. Once she has mastered that you can move up to the standard power if she feels comfortable with it. I use a Glock 19 with a 19# spring, with the proper technique its easy to rack the slide.
 
I've got to go with Tomas and Morgan on this one. When introducing my new Japanese wife to shooting, I racked my brain and every slide we could rent or borrow in search of one she could handle. We ended up with a Ruger .22, which I was not at all impressed with, but it was what she could use, so we went with it.

After a few months, a friend happened by that had a .45 and showed her a trick to use when racking the slide, and she could do it with ease after that. It involved bringing the pistol across the chest and pushing, not pulling, the slide back using her hands against each other. It really did the trick for her and now she shoots a .45 well enough to give me a hard time at the range. If I'm not on my game, she'll beat me.

If the High Power fits her hand, stick with it. It's a great pistol any way you look at it and you can't go wrong with it if she can get the hang of working it, and that is just a matter of practice. Just my $.02, but I have been down that road myself. Hope this helps.

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With my shield or on it...
 
There is a simple solution to your problem.

LEAVE A ROUND CHAMBERED!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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"God grants liberty only to those who love it and are always ready to guard and defend it." --Daniel Webster
 
There is a simple solution to your problem.

LEAVE A ROUND CHAMBERED!!!!!!!!!!!!!

....and by the revolver too. :)

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"God grants liberty only to those who love it and are always ready to guard and defend it." --Daniel Webster

[This message has been edited by legacy38 (edited August 06, 1999).]
 
My wife is 5'2" and carries a CZ-75 compact.

She is able to rack the slide and the grip fits her hand well.

She started out with a Ruger GP-100 and traded that for the CZ-75 when we got concealed carry permits.
 
Anthony,
From reading the above, I've learned some new ways to express what we've been doing in CHL classes. I also have learned to work the student up from a weaker spring to a stronger spring as they get the "feel" of racking a slide.

Once the student has the "feel" of HOW it's done, even the students with weaker hands or arthritis seem to do well.

However, watch the student closely. I've noticed two problems as they learn to "push" with BOTH hands:
- They may point the gun at the poor bloke to their left (rather than turn their body toward the strong hand to keep the barrel down range).
- They may raise the pistol high enough (to the chest)that the barrel points at the off-hand elbow. Lowering the hands (and pistol, obviously) from the chest area to the belly or even the belt usually resolves that danger.

Both infractions provide a good opportunity to stress safety.

What makes me sad is when some well-meaning guy has fixed up "the little lady" with a "cute little gun" that has such a small slide that her hand is either over the muzzle or gets pinched through the ejection port. (Ouch!)

A patient application of G17 or G34 usually resolves the "big gun" phobia! :)

My wife isn't small (5'6") and has very strong hands (Registered Massage Therapist) but the semi-autos are "too mechanical" for her liking. She shoots my S&W N-frame Model 28 Highway Patrolman .357 Magnum (with .38s). Sometimes she shoots our little Charter Arms .44 Special (but that one isn't as much fun).

I hope you and your fiance have many happy years together enjoying our wonderful sport.
 
I'm writing to endorse legacy38's solution, and just in case it wasn't totally clear, to make it explicit. Leave the Browning "cocked and locked." Rack the slide, to place a round in the barrel, leave it there and put the external mechanical safety on. The weapon is loaded and ready for fire, but the external mechanical safety bars immediate use.

A second, and important safety feature on the Browning Hi Power, at least the older models which haven't been modified, is the magazine safety. When it is time to take the gun off "cocked and locked" and unload, drop the mag first. Once the mag is out the hammer can't drop even if the mechanical safety is OFF and the trigger is pulled because of the internal magazine safety. Then you can rack the slide to remove the chambered round with decreased risk of an accidental discharge. Obviously all done with the barrel pointing in a safe direction, away from doors and windows (perhaps straight into the mattress).

"Cocked and locked" was apparently a preferred mode of carry for the Hi Power by many law enforcement professionals years ago, and still is employed by many experienced and responsible individuals. It simply strikes some as more dangerous because a round is in the chamber, and obviously that does make the weapon more easily brought into action quickly. (It is highly debatable whether a double action without an external safety, like the Glocks or Sigs, is safer than the older single action gun.) The fact that the gun is ready for action doesn't mean it is more prone to an accidental discharge. Use common sense. Store the gun out of reach of minors but retrievable by adults.

There is also some advantage in having only ONE gun for your girlfriend to use. She will learn how to use it and as a result of her practice, practice, practice, eliminate the primary risk associated with "cocked and locked" -- inexperience.

You can profitably spend the $370 on range time and ammo. Maybe buy a few extra mags. Get one mag full of the best hollow point that runs through your gun. Buy several boxes from different manufacturers and test them all thoroughly insure that they feed reliably.

Maybe put night sights on the HP. Maybe send the gun off to an outfit like Cylinder and Slide(http://www.cylinder-slide.com/)and have any number of enhancements added, even a trigger job. Add a Sure Fire light (I've never seen this on an HP, but it must be possible). There are plenty of ways of spending the extra bucks intelligently on the weapon you already own.

With the Hi Power "cocked and locked" when the BG appears, you simply flick the safety off -- a genuinely effortless flick of your thumb -- and you're already shooting in rapid single action. With a reliable, factory pre-ban mag you've got 13 rounds flying at the sucker. BADABEE BADABA BADABOOM, bad guy go bye-bye.

The Browning is very difficult to improve on for handling, reliability or safety. You already own an outstanding weapon. Despite its double stack it still has a small grip. The 9mm ammo in most Hi Powers is plenty to stop all but the most robust bad guys, and is more likely to result in good placement than a 40 cal., with a resulting increased likelihood of a successful defense. Good luck.

[This message has been edited by abruzzi (edited August 07, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by abruzzi (edited August 07, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by abruzzi (edited August 07, 1999).]
 
Anthony,

I understand your concern but, I think you would be wasting $370 dollars buying that new gun. There is nothing wrong with a Hi-Power and, have I found many men to have the impression that women should not have large single action pistols for various reasons, sometimes valid, sometimes not.

When you go to a double action revolver or pistol, women tend to have problems with grip and finger strength making that long heavy double action trigger stroke. The single action pistol has a much shorter pull and generally lighter weight. You also are not forced to master two different trigger strokes. If she trains with that heavy double action revolver in a single action mode, what happens when someone is crawling through the window and she tries her first double action shot?

Your concern seems to stem from the fear that in a life threatening situation, she would not have the strength and motivation to rack the slide. When you are that scared and have that much adrenalin coursing through your veins, you can do physical things you would never expect.

For $370 dollars, you can take the Browning Hi-Power she already has and the proficiency she has with it, and build from there instead of throwing it all away. To address any reliability concerns you may have, I would suggest a "tune up" for "street carry" from Cylinder & Slide, Novak or, TJ Custom. Shoot factory mags with high quality factory ammo and stop worrying about it.

The other option, is to take that $370 and send her to a professional shooting school such as Thunder Ranch or similar. It's truly amazing what women can do with a Hi-Power, 1911, etc. when they come out of one of those schools.

If you insist on urging her to a revolver, I would strongly suggest you set your sights on something more appropriate. A S&W L-frame, Ruger GP-100, or similar full size wheel gun would be, in general, a better choice.

Sid
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Tx FFL & NRA certified Instructor
 
Anthony.... My wife is just a little taller and fits the same description. She chose a Firestar because the small grip fit her hand the best.


If your Fience is comfortable with the Hi Power, you can do a couple of things to help with the slide situation. Try to have her hold the slide and push the frame forward with her strong hand (finger off the trigger of course). This little change in technique will often make all the difference. She could also cock the hammer then rack the slide. This will reduce resistance on the slide by removing the mainspring pressure. Both of these can be done safely, but must be practiced.

Chris in mo
 
Anthony:

Your solution sounds well thought out--if she like the revolver--go for it.

On the other hand, you might look at the Makorov. Medium sized DA semi. 9x19 isn't a bad sized round, DA pull isn't overly strong, and easy to chamber. Just another option to those already posted. Cold war
East German secret police seemed to like this pistol. :)
 
Anthony: I can understand your wanting to purchase that five-inch M10, it sounds like an interesting piece...but in this case, your fiancee already has decent familiarity with one of the best fighting pistols extant. I would say that you are looking for a solution where there is no problem. Practice, and the use of proper push-push slide racking technique, will be of more use to the lady than having to learn a whole new drill. (If she were a beginner I'd recommend a J-frame with external hammer as the all-around best choice in a defensive handgun, as it suits a woman's small hand very well, and requires little strength to fire when thumb cocked.) Remember that under stress, we are all prone to limp-wrist an auto, and this could leave her with a single-shot to face a lethal situation. Practice is key. slabsides

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An armed man is a citizen; an unarmed man is a subject; a disarmed man is a slave.
 
Anthony - I am a 5'6" female, and have medium carpal tunnel problems. I wanted to move up from my revolvers and was given excellent advice - go to a range and rent pistols until you find one that feels comfortable, shoots well for you, and that you can rack - the advantage to most range rentals is that they are broken-in, so I got to feel how the gun would operate for me eventually. I settled on a Glock 26, and now own G30, and 2 Kimbers. The other posts are correct - part of the problem is learning the correct technique and building the muscle in the hands and forearms. I used one of those little squeeze balls, and it REALLY helped - not only with racking the slide, but with grip too. Maybe the Browning just needs more ammo through it?? Just a thought.
 
BR549,

Please don't take this as a flame, but there are many of us around who don't think it's possible to "move UP from a revolver." Good shooting with whichever type you use.
 
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