Federal's new Expanding FMJ

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TFL must have more clout than I thought. We start talking about a new bullett, and the inventor comes by to give us the information on it.

Thanks Tom, keep working on the 200 grain .45



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"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed." -Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist Papers at 184-8.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by STEVE M:
Tom, how does this perform at an angle? First will it recochete like FMJ? And second will it still penetrate if it hits bone near the skin at an angle? I remember Jim Cirillo had some problems with FMJ and early HP's when head shots where at an angle.[/quote]

STEVE M:

SOFT TARGETS: When the EFMJ strikes a soft target at an angle, the expansion (when looking directly at the nose) is still very round but is sometimes canted in relation to the shank’s axis. A big NY white-tail was hit behind the shoulder at an angle of about 30 degrees (155 grain .40 (S&W 4006)) and still looked good, considering the fact that it broke a rib. The general shape of the expanded bullet was surprisingly round. Weight retention was 100%. The deer traveled about 20 yards before piling up. I hope to have many more field reports on white-tails next year.

HARD TARGETS: Regarding hard targets, it depends on the target. If the bullet strikes plywood it digs in and expands, but as is the case with a soft point or hollow point, if the angle of impact is great enough, it will depart at the approximate angle of incidence. If fired at an angle into a masonry surface, the bullet is transformed into a large, ellipsoidal projectile, and because of the friction involved, a good percentage of its velocity is lost. The combination of reduced velocity and _very poor_ ballistic coefficient at least reduces the hazard to bystanders. One can only expect one design to perform so many tasks. There are no magic bullets.

Regarding detractors (above post) and barrier penetration, as stated previously; ”…as loaded, *penetration in each caliber is over 12 inches after piercing hard barriers.” No bullet expands to full diameter instantaneously, that’s why (just like a JHP) it can penetrate car doors and windshields.

*10% gelatin/FBI protocol

Because it IS a _more_ rapidly expanding bullet and because 12 sharp jacket edges are exposed quickly, it shouldn’t experience cranial deflection/penetration problems.

Tom Burczynski
 
Tom Burczynski:

While I've been skeptical of your HydraShok, Starfire and Quik-Shok designs, I think you may have a winner here! I'm looking forward to testing Federal EFMJ. I'm especially excited about a bullet that demonstrates reliable expansion after passing through heavy clothing. As long as the bullet reliably penetrates between 12 and 16 inches (and doesn't fragment in the process), bullet weight doesn't matter, in my opinion. Hopefully this will be a superior load for ultra-compact .45's like the Glock 30, whose short barrels don't allow most JHP bullets to achieve sufficient velocity for reliable expansion after passing through heavy clothing.

Out of curiosity, I've been planning an experiment which involved plugging the cavities of a few different JHP bullets with RTV silicone sealant to see if expansion performance could be improved through heavy clothing. I was interested to see if the silicone "plug" (being a soft solid) would prevent the cavity from being plugged as it passed through heavy clothing, yet still transfer fluid pressure to the internal walls of the cavity and cause the bullet to expand more reliably. From the article I read about your EFMJ design, it sounds like you've already tried this with mixed results.

Anyhow, I'll be contacting Federal in a couple of weeks to see about obtaining a few samples of EFMJ to test with mini-Glocks.

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/s/ Shawn Dodson
Firearms Tactical Institute
http://www.firearmstactical.com
 
OK, I have a dumb hypothetical question:

What's the risk of the silicone in the EFMJ hardening in cold temperatures? Have these rounds been tested after, say, six hours in a freezer, to simulate ammo carried by a cop walking a beat (rare as that is nowadays) on a winter day?

Hmmm... Perhaps the friction generated as the bullet speeds down the gun barrel heats the silicone enough regardless of its initial temperature.

And, BTW, is Federal ready for the lawsuits that are sure to follow from survivors of EFMJ shootings? 'Cause we all know, from the Dow Corning lawsuits, that silicone is a deadly toxin that causes everything from liver cancer to bad hair days. :D
 
Tom, thanks for the very informative postings.

I too am a 230 grain hydra shock fan, because 230 hydras and 230 UMC fmj print the same point of impact, and as far as "clogging" a hollow point the 45 round looks like you mix a martini in there (I think Tom Clancy said that) And UNLIKE glasers and magsafes, etc they are affordable. AND its a standard pressure load so I can shoot it in my old colt sew service army revolver if I so choose.

The ONLY complaint I've ever had a about hydras is they can bind on the feed ramp of some guns because of the steep olgive angle.. so bottom line is on some guns you have to polish the feed ramp if you want to shoot hydras.

So an expanding fmj that feed like good old ball ammo in ANY auto, but still opens up.. well that's pretty darn cool.

I'd like to hear more about the 200 grain load.. and lets hope us civilians can get a box. Any idea what the retail price of this will be?

Dr.Rob
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Shawn Dodson:
Tom Burczynski:

While I've been skeptical of your HydraShok, Starfire and Quik-Shok designs, I think you may have a winner here! I'm looking forward to testing Federal EFMJ. I'm especially excited about a bullet that demonstrates reliable expansion after passing through heavy clothing. As long as the bullet reliably penetrates between 12 and 16 inches (and doesn't fragment in the process), bullet weight doesn't matter, in my opinion. Hopefully this will be a superior load for ultra-compact .45's like the Glock 30, whose short barrels don't allow most JHP bullets to achieve sufficient velocity for reliable expansion after passing through heavy clothing.

Out of curiosity, I've been planning an experiment which involved plugging the cavities of a few different JHP bullets with RTV silicone sealant to see if expansion performance could be improved through heavy clothing. I was interested to see if the silicone "plug" (being a soft solid) would prevent the cavity from being plugged as it passed through heavy clothing, yet still transfer fluid pressure to the internal walls of the cavity and cause the bullet to expand more reliably. From the article I read about your EFMJ design, it sounds like you've already tried this with mixed results.

Anyhow, I'll be contacting Federal in a couple of weeks to see about obtaining a few samples of EFMJ to test with mini-Glocks.

[/quote]

Sean:

Hydra-Shok has a very good INS field record in 9mm (115 grain +P+ and 124 grain +P). As you may be aware, the INS has more shootings than all of the other federal agencies combined. On average, there is one shooting per day along the border. In certain border areas there are as many as 3(!) per day.

As far as Starfire goes, I’ve been very disappointed over the years that PMC hasn’t loaded the round to its potential -- that is, to decent velocities. I’m hoping their new .357 SIG load will launch its bullet at an appropriate speed. They’re far too conservative when it comes to chamber pressure, hence, the moderate speeds. The 240 grain .44 Mag. Starfire load (even though lower in velocity than most .44 loads), really produces extreme boiler room damage in deer-sized game and penetrates _very_ deeply as well due to its mass. This just goes to show that, when driven fast enough, they do what they were designed to do. When driven fast enough, expansion is rapid, and the sharp, exposed ribs assist in penetration. This is the downside to licensing a design…once licensed, its out of your control and the company can do with it what they will.

With respect to Quik-Shok (centerfire), I believe that in its present form it’s the most devastating round extant as far as it’s ability to cause profuse hemorrhaging. Many deer have been killed with this round in five calibers. On one occasion, a .44 Mag. round literally removed a lung and blew three inches of it through the 2-inch+ _entrance_ hole (a bizarre spectacle). Something unusual is happening in there! On the other hand, I understand that you would like to see more penetration, and that’s what’s being worked on right now -- a soft point version. The soft point Quik-Shok provides a slower core separation and deeper penetration but at the expense of a smaller *circle of dispersion. The .308 Quik-Shok SWAT round (hopefully available by year’s end) “lifts and separates” all fluidic media that it engages. This thing is really, really awesome.

Sean, I’m surprised you haven’t tested the 12 Ga. Quik-Shok slug. The devastation it produces, while falling into your ideal range of penetration, is…well…it’s almost beyond sufficient description. When it was tested at the INS, many mouths were agape. The LARGE gel blocks, even though restrained with duct tape, were blown up in the air 3 feet (off the test table) and downrange, 7-8 feet. The circle of dispersion was, in some cases, greater than the width of the block. The 3 temporary cavities were immense. The round displayed a “coring” effect which amounted to the dislodging of a 5-inch long, three-inch-wide, triangular-shaped section of gel from the entrance area. I have high-speed videos of the temporary cavity formation, among other things. It was also tested by another major federal agency and it passed their terminal ballistic protocol.

Finding time to do development work in so many areas at the same time is a real challenge -- sleep is a luxury. Oftentimes, things don’t move as fast as I’d like because of this -- but I assure you that your concerns have been noted.

*The diameter of an inscribed circle encompassing the 3 segments

Sean,

Regarding your compact .45 comment -- we’ve found that the larger the bullet diameter, the easier it is to force expansion. Among the three, the .45 appears to have the lowest expansion threshold. The .45 happens to be my favorite EFMJ round.

SILICONE SEALANT: Several different types of rubber of substantial durometer were used with various hollow point configurations. When these bullets were fired through fabric, the results, while better, were not significant enough to justify a new product. One of the problems faced stemmed from using a relatively small amount of rubber in a cavity of conventional size and shape. A conventional cavity limited the amount of rubber that could be used. By the same token, when the cavity is enlarged in an effort to promote a more spontaneous expansion, penetration is impeded. Although we are continuing our efforts in this area, both developmentally and intellectually (intellectual property), there is much to be accomplished in other areas at the same time. That’s why things take longer than planned.

Tom Burczynski
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Matt VDW:
OK, I have a dumb hypothetical question:

What's the risk of the silicone in the EFMJ hardening in cold temperatures? Have these rounds been tested after, say, six hours in a freezer, to simulate ammo carried by a cop walking a beat (rare as that is nowadays) on a winter day?

Hmmm... Perhaps the friction generated as the bullet speeds down the gun barrel heats the silicone enough regardless of its initial temperature.

And, BTW, is Federal ready for the lawsuits that are sure to follow from survivors of EFMJ shootings? 'Cause we all know, from the Dow Corning lawsuits, that silicone is a deadly toxin that causes everything from liver cancer to bad hair days. :D

[/quote]

Matt VDW:

Last year, Federal froze 9mm EFMJ bullets at 40 degrees (F.) below zero for 24 hours and then gel tested them. Surprisingly, the rubber experienced no appreciable embrittlement and the O.D. of the recovered bullets was only a few thousandths smaller than bullets fired at 70 degrees. This silicone is great stuff.

Even taken collectively, the base heat and bearing surface friction generated doesn’t begin to offset the effects of “bullet nose chill” as the projectile streaks through sub-zero air. The silicone-containing ogive portion of the bullet is isolated from the heat source and takes the brunt of the chill. That’s why Federal tested using a worst-case-scenario. The only thing that helps the bullet nose chill situation is the duration (time of flight is less than a millisecond when we’re talking combat distances). Think about wind chill at 1200 fps -- you know, a humanoid launched through sub-zero air. Let’s see…if a 30 m.p.h. wind produces a minus 20 wind chill factor………….

Regarding lawsuits, silicone and survivors, I doubt if there’ll be many (survivors)! Any poor sap who happened to survive wouldn’t have a case because of the duration of exposure. Silicone breast implants are in there for decades, whereas a bullet is extracted within hours.

Tom Burczynski
 
Tom, I didn't mean to sound like a ditractor, I've been a big fan for years, and have carried 45 Hydra's for years now.I just wanted to explore all aspects before I decide that I want to leave such a good design for something new.
 
Hey, welcome Tom, you may make Senior Member just in this thread. :D

I sure hope that this ammo is offered to the general public. I would like to try some of the .45ACP stuff when or if it does.

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Ne Conjuge Nobiscum
"If there be treachery, let there be jehad!"
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr.Rob:
Tom, thanks for the very informative postings.

I too am a 230 grain hydra shock fan, because 230 hydras and 230 UMC fmj print the same point of impact, and as far as "clogging" a hollow point the 45 round looks like you mix a martini in there (I think Tom Clancy said that) And UNLIKE glasers and magsafes, etc they are affordable. AND its a standard pressure load so I can shoot it in my old colt sew service army revolver if I so choose.

The ONLY complaint I've ever had a about hydras is they can bind on the feed ramp of some guns because of the steep olgive angle.. so bottom line is on some guns you have to polish the feed ramp if you want to shoot hydras.

So an expanding fmj that feed like good old ball ammo in ANY auto, but still opens up.. well that's pretty darn cool.

I'd like to hear more about the 200 grain load.. and lets hope us civilians can get a box. Any idea what the retail price of this will be?

Dr.Rob[/quote]

Dr.Rob

Regarding feeding, the wall thickness of the jacket at and below the meplat region is over .025 thick. This means that it will not deform when impacting a feed ramp. As you know, any .45 auto h.p. can be deformed fairly easily by the feed ramp. Unfortunately, this changes the tip angle and can affect feeding.

I wish I could help you with your retail price question. Pricing info will probably have to come directly from Federal. Silicone has a great shelf life and is a great expansion material but is rather costly (even when miles of it are purchased). I expect that it could be slightly higher in price than Hydra-Shok, but don’t quote me on this. Gotta get back to work or I’ll never know if a 200 grainer will fly.

Tom Burczynski
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tom Burczynski:
Regarding detractors (above post) and barrier penetration, as stated previously; ”…as loaded, *penetration in each caliber is over 12 inches after piercing hard barriers.” No bullet expands to full diameter instantaneously, that’s why (just like a JHP) it can penetrate car doors and windshields.
[/quote]

Ok Tom, I take that back, the design doesn't seem flawed afterall. As a matter of fact, I am looking forward to experimenting with the .45 ACP EFMJ as soon as it arrives on dealer's shelves.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by George Hill:
I saw this today in G&W4LE mag...
Indeed it does have a high NIFTY Factor.
From what Tom is saying, this design works.
1200 FPS loaded in a .45 - that made me interested.
Hmmm... Still, I will need to see this for myself. Can you send me a few boxes? :D

[/quote]

George:

Don’t want you to think I forgot about your post. You’ll want to bear in mind that that 1200 fps figure was with a 135 grain prototype (just _had_ to know). Velocities for the heavier bullets will be lower, of course.

Regarding your last question, I’ll send you some information via private e-mail.

Tom Burczynski
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tom Burczynski:
The company is currently geared up for 9mm production. Manufacture of the .357 SIG and the .40 will soon follow. The .45 Auto will be next in line. At this time, it is being viewed as a law-enforcement-only round. It’s conceivable that this could change in the future, however.[/quote]

Do you really mean, that it won´t be available for "normal" people like me ???
I´m from Germany and Hollow Points are not allowed here.
Only Soft Points and the Lapua CEPP are legal here.
But I have a .45 and there are no Soft Points or CEPP in this caliber.
So PLEASE sell it also to "normal" people in Europe, there is a need for safe ammunition.

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Remington 870 rocks !

[This message has been edited by James_T_Kirk (edited February 04, 2000).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dvc:
Ok Tom, I take that back, the design doesn't seem flawed afterall. As a matter of fact, I am looking forward to experimenting with the .45 ACP EFMJ as soon as it arrives on dealer's shelves.[/quote]

DVC:

I've grown a thick skin over the years and fewer things bother me now than they used to. However, I felt compelled to at least reiterate a portion of my prior post in case it was missed. I'm sure there will be bonafide detractors sooner or later. Working hard on the .45. Don't have a clue as to the ETA, however.

Tom Burczynski
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by James_T_Kirk:
Do you really mean, that it won´t be available for "normal" people like me ???
I´m from Germany and Hollow Points are not allowed here.
Only Soft Points and the Lapua CEPP are legal here.
But I have a .45 and there are no Soft Points or CEPP in this caliber.
So PLEASE sell it also to "normal" people in Europe, there is a need for safe ammunition.

[/quote]

James_T_Kirk:

I can empathize with your situation there in Germany but whether EFMJ ammo is sold to civilians or not is not my decision to make. This is completely up to Federal Cartridge. I will, however, forward your post and that of the gentleman from Austria to FCC.

Tom Burczynski
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tom Burczynski
The .308 Quik-Shok SWAT round [/quote]

I don't like the sound of that! SWAT Round I mean. Makes it sound like it will be restricted. Yes?

(hopefully available by year’s end)

Yeah Yeah.. thats what I keep hearing.. year after year.. and yet another deer season comes and goes.. :p :D

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>12 Ga. Quik-Shok slug. The devastation it produces, is…well…it’s almost beyond sufficient description. [/quote]

Yep.. I can attest to that. What is the fastest way to split a block of gel into 4 pieces... shot it with a 12 Ga. QS!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>This silicone is great stuff.[/quote]

Hehehe... men have been saying that for years ;)

Schmit


[This message has been edited by Schmit (edited February 05, 2000).]
 
Tom - Very good of you Sir!
By the way - I have used The Hydra Shoks in my beloved .45s for years. Probably the very best round for the .45 is the 230 grain version that Federal loads.
In fact - thats what is riding loaded on my hip right now. One time I even I traded in a gun I had just purchased because it didn't feed that load.

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I mean, if I went around saying I was an Emperor because some
moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, people would put me away!
 
It`s really great to have you here Tom and get info right from the source! I`ve been a big fan of your bullet designs for years (except for the Starfire for the reasons you mentioned). I carry 230gr.Hydra Shok in my .45s and 115gr. Quikshok in my 9mms. I`ve been meaning to get some QS for the .45s too. I`ve been really impressed with them in my own crude ballistics tests. For those who haven`t tried the QS shotgun slugs yet,do yourselves a favor and do it! Their effect on any soft target material is just unreal,you have to see it to believe it! They`re also plenty accurate. I have 4 of these in the sidesaddle of my "social shotgun". I hope this new design will be made available to the public,especially in some foreign countries and states that have rediculous restrictions on defensive ammo,there is a real niche to be filled. Marcus
 
Tom Burczynski:

I was intending to send this to you via private e-mail, but your profile doesn't include it.

I occasionally get requests from law enforcement agencies or individual law enforcement officers to advise them about a good shotgun slug. I tell them to check out the Quik-Shok slug.

As for being skeptical of your HydraShok design, I feel that at the time (when HydraShok first came out) while others were designing JHP handgun bullets, you applied actual engineering effort into HydraShok. With or without the post, the bullet performed well. In reviewing the FBI's test of modified and unmodified HydraShok bullets, I came away with the conclusion that the post aided slightly in two things: 1) slightly better accuracy and 2) better terminal performance after passing through automotive windshield glass. As for bare gelatin and heavily clothed gelatin, the modified HydraShoks appeared to demonstrate better overall performance. This is why I feel that the HydraShok post is a gimmick. The bullet design is sound, with or without the post, in my opinion. In current generation HydraShok bullets, the post is so small and slender that it leaves me with the impression that it's there for cosmetic purposes versus functionality. I don't want to leave you with the impression that I'm critcizing HydraShok in general, it's just that the post appears to be a gimmick to me. In most cases, HydraShok seems to perform as well both with or without the post.

As for Starfire, I just don't see an innovative design (fluted cavity) that genuinely contributes to improved expansion performance. Speer's Gold Dot bullet uses a similar process when the cavity is punched, and Gold Dot bullets exhibit similar ribs on the expanded petals. The function of the flutes is to produce weak spots in the lead core to facilitate expansion, similar to the serrations in a copper jacket. I see the Starfire's fluted cavity as something that simply distinguishes its appearance from other bullets. I'm not being critical of your Starfire design. I'm critical of the marketing hype that was used to promote these bullets when they first came out. In my opinion the significance of the fluted hollowpoint was overly exaggerated as a marketing ploy.

As for the Quik-Shok handgun bullet, I just don't see the value of using a handgun bullet that breaks into smaller segments as it penetrates. Why take a something like a 9mm or a .45 ACP handgun bullet and turn it into the equivalent of three .22/.32 caliber FMJ slugs? While I feel Quik-Shok is an ingenious, innovative and cost effective pre-fragmented design, the exaggerated marketing hype of the bullet's ability to repidly transfer energy and the resultant effects on blood pressure and nerve tissue is not supported by any valid medical research that I know of.

As for Quik-Shok .223 and .308 rifle bullets, I haven't really formed an opinion about them yet. Who knows? I might end up recommending them like I do Quik-Shok shotgun slugs.

Please don't take any of my opinions as an attempt to ignite a flame war. I value the opportunity to share my opinions with you. Hopefully you (and others) will view my comments as dispassionate objective opinions instead of a personal attack on you and your inventions.

As for your new EFMJ bullet design, as I said before, I honestly believe it looks like a winner, especially if it performs as described. Consistent, reliable bullet expansion through clothing, especially from ultra-compact carry guns, is sorely needed. Especially if the shooter doesn't have to pay a high price in recoil and muzzle flip while sacrificing penetration to obtain this kind of expansion performance.

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/s/ Shawn Dodson
Firearms Tactical Institute
http://www.firearmstactical.com
 
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