Federal "Subscription" begins as reported in July by Forbes

When you own both Federal and Remington and imports are still somewhat scarce, you control a large segment of the market and this can price accordingly. When cheap basic Gun Club shotgun shells were $4.75 to $5.25 before the insanity and now Vista has a MAP of $11/box, one can see what is truly happening.
 
Interesting considering more socialized (more expensive workforce) and good Swiss 124gr Norma being imported at $15.
1. Norma is made in Sweden, not Switzerland.

2. Sweden isn't really as socialist as people think.
https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/the-...alist-model-that-works-sweden-aint-socialist/

3. Where are you seeing Norma 9mm for sale and in stock at 30 cents a round in 250 round quantities? I just did a quick check for 9mm ammo prices and the best price I see is steel cased stuff with a price that works out to about 32 cents a round in 1000 round quantities by the time you factor in shipping.
 
My LGS has 200 round boxes of Browning 9mm FMJ for 35 cents per round. That's about the best I've seen
 
1. Norma is made in Sweden, not Switzerland.

2. Sweden isn't really as socialist as people think.
https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/the-...alist-model-that-works-sweden-aint-socialist/

3. Where are you seeing Norma 9mm for sale and in stock at 30 cents a round in 250 round quantities? I just did a quick check for 9mm ammo prices and the best price I see is steel cased stuff with a price that works out to about 32 cents a round in 1000 round quantities by the time you factor in shipping.


normashooting.com and ammoshoponline.com had sales with prices that low for Black Friday, including shipping. I got a case (1,000 rd) of 124 gr Norma for $300 shipped (pre-tax). Prior to that they’ve had Norma and Ruag for around $0.32-$0.34 a round (you can still find 94 gr frangible from ammosho currently for $0.34 a round https://www.ammoshoponline.com/shop...stock-new-brass-9-mm-luger-rhta-94-gr-qty-50/). I think it is fair to point out that ammoshoponline seems to often be contract overrun ammunition, and that likely helps with the cost.


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Norma is owned by Ruag. Ruag is most certainly a Swiss based company. They also sell Swiss made ammo on both of their websites, Ammoshoponline.com and Normashooting.com.

I have a case of Norma 124gr Swiss made ammo right in front of me. On the box and on the shipping box.

So...
 
Norma is owned by Ruag. Ruag is most certainly a Swiss based company. They also sell Swiss made ammo on both of their websites, Ammoshoponline.com and Normashooting.com.

So...


All the Norma I’ve bought from them was made in Germany. That includes the 9mm and 223 Remington. Ruag and Norma make ammunition in a number of countries.


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Interesting. The Norma ammo factory is in Sweden. Sounds like Ruag is using the Norma name on ammo made by other companies they hold. I guess that makes good business sense given that the Norma name has more of a cachet than Ammotec.

Ruag Ammotec has factories in Germany, Hungary and Switzerland--possibly others.
 
What's wrong is that we've had massive high demand for ammo going for nearly 2 years and the manufacturers of ammo are refusing to expand production. Maybe labor shortages have added to that, but looking at Federal and CCI's job listings CCI is looking for a night shift worker at $20/hr and Federal a weekend machine maintenance guy; these are NOT critical hires that are going to put a dent in increasing supply.

So, why aren't ammo makers building new facilities or expanding their current facilities? They don't see this high demand continuing and have said they see it dropping considerably by 2023 (after the mid terms).

Obviously you expand operations when you see a long term trend of increased demand and if the millions of new gun owners isn't a flashing neon sign that there is going to be an increase in long term demand then the executives who are paid big bucks to forecast these changes in the future have failed at their jobs.

Since the industry has zero interest in expanding their production capabilities then there's no reason to not spend every extra cent you can on ammo when prices come back down in 2023, which means that prices really won't come down at all because the demand is going to remain.

Of course the industry has no interest in spending money, spending money hurts the stock price and the stock price getting hurt means the execs don't get their fat Christmas bonus and their spouses (and mistresses) don't get their fancy new Lexus or BMW under the tree and that leads to sad faces and divorce cases.

So what's the solution the industry has come up with? Why, it's a subscription based service where if you pay double or triple the normal price you'll be guaranteed ammo delivered right to your door and when you decide that's too much and you want to cancel, well you gotta pay $300 bucks for a cancellation fee.

This obsession within companies to nail people into a subscription is getting out of control, you can even argue the pharmaceuticals are salivating over every new Covid variant because it's billions more they can make with vaccines and boosters and pills and tests. The video game industry is following with this trend as now instead of selling people one game on one disc they'd rather offer you access to many games that you will never own for $10 or $15 a month.

Companies across industries are swiftly becoming anti-consumer and with the service based products it's tough to fight that change other than to speak out against it, but with goods like ammo and this ammo subscription it's easy for people to say no because the price is so extreme and traditional methods of acquiring ammo will still be available. That said, Federal and Vista can pound sand with this, it almost makes me want to boycott their products now.
 
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It's a US only problem that benefits the company that owns almost all the US ammo brands. Vista has never made more money by doing nothing. Well, I mean the CEO keeps getting on Youtube to tell you the problem...but wait....

That's why I make a point that my Swiss made Norma 124gr FMJ, cheapest on the market, is coming from a more socialized country with less raw goods purchasing power than the US...imports no less...and is a better product that crap Blazer 115gr.

That's a problem. Forbes said this subscription service was going to help the backlog of orders. At $28 for 115gr American Eagle is Vista's way to correct the US only ammo problem? no. That's hosing your customer once again.
 
Federal "Subscription" begins as reported in July by Forbes

Interesting. The Norma ammo factory is in Sweden. Sounds like Ruag is using the Norma name on ammo made by other companies they hold. I guess that makes good business sense given that the Norma name has more of a cachet than Ammotec.

Ruag Ammotec has factories in Germany, Hungary and Switzerland--possibly others.


There is also Norma labeled ammunition produced in the US.

https://www.ammoshoponline.com/shop...stock-new-brass-9-mm-luger-rhta-94-gr-qty-50/

Look at the label. There was also a FMJ option with a similar label, but that sold out.

Whether it is Ruag or Norma it has been relatively cheap.


As for Federal/Vista, we’ve beaten this drum a number of times this year and I don’t really see why it still surprises people. Yes now they have a subscription service, and I don’t doubt some people will in fact subscribe. Some people keep buying at these prices, and as long as that happens there is little motivation for sellers to lower prices. We can talk about sellers taking advantage of buyers, but many buyers are feeding into this. It’s a two way street.

Around me $20 a box or so has been the going rate for a while, and the inventory has been sitting lately, even when it was $17 a box locally for Black Friday. I’ve tapered my own purchasing because 1. I don’t want to feed this market and 2. As good as $0.30 a round seems, I think we’ll see lower in months ahead. Availability online hasn’t been a problem in months now. If you don’t have some kind of backlog by now (this is in general, not to members here) then I feel like you either aren’t motivated to buy or aren’t trying. I think we are also still seeing people that were used to periods where they couldn’t get anything buying now simply because they fear supply will go away again rather than because they don’t have ammunition or are continuously running out. That’s a mentality that needs to taper for prices to keep going down.


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There is also Norma labeled ammunition produced in the US.

https://www.ammoshoponline.com/shop/...-94-gr-qty-50/

Look at the label. There was also a FMJ option with a similar label, but that sold out.
I've been trying to find anything about a Norma ammunition factory in the U.S. If anyone can find information on that, I'd be interested to read about it.

I know Fiocchi, based in Italy, decided that it was cheaper to produce ammo in the U.S. if they were going to sell it here, but it was no problem to find that the Fiocchi U.S. factory is in Missouri. For some reason I can't find anything on Norma's U.S. production facilities.
 
It's a US only problem that benefits the company that owns almost all the US ammo brands. Vista has never made more money by doing nothing. Well, I mean the CEO keeps getting on Youtube to tell you the problem...but wait....

That's why I make a point that my Swiss made Norma 124gr FMJ, cheapest on the market, is coming from a more socialized country with less raw goods purchasing power than the US...imports no less...and is a better product that crap Blazer 115gr.

That's a problem. Forbes said this subscription service was going to help the backlog of orders. At $28 for 115gr American Eagle is Vista's way to correct the US only ammo problem? no. That's hosing your customer once again.
So if the situation were reversed and the company was selling at cost just to keep the doors open, you’d not take advantage of the situation and stock up? You do realize that no one is forcing anyone to buy their products at whatever price they put on it, right.
 
Federal "Subscription" begins as reported in July by Forbes

I've been trying to find anything about a Norma ammunition factory in the U.S. If anyone can find information on that, I'd be interested to read about it.

I know Fiocchi, based in Italy, decided that it was cheaper to produce ammo in the U.S. if they were going to sell it here, but it was no problem to find that the Fiocchi U.S. factory is in Missouri. For some reason I can't find anything on Norma's U.S. production facilities.


As I said, “whether it’s Ruag or Norma”. When I said this I meant it may well be Ruag ammunition marketed as Norma, per your explanation earlier.

Ruag has a US subsidiary in Tampa, Florida (scroll down the page):
https://ruag-ammotec.com/

This article seems to suggest that relationship started in 2009:
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2009/10/ruag-teams-with-florida-firm-to-distribute-ammo-in-usa/

There has also been Geco ammunition (another Ruag owned entity) that has been marked as made in the US:
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/new-geco-9mm-ammo-made-in-america.834043/

My guess is the same plant is behind both, but I could be wrong.


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That makes sense. Which gets us back to my earlier statement about Ruag rebranding ammo made by other companies with the Norma name.
 
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