Federal Photo ID ?
- Thread starter L-Frame
- Start date
Dennis Olson
New member
Why, no problem at all.
Just ask Hitler.
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"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary." - H.L. Mencken
Just ask Hitler.
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"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary." - H.L. Mencken
Or Stalin or any other self styled dictator.When everyone has a federal ID it has to be used for all things.They will know when and where on anything you do.The next step is to use it to get travel papers.Don't fall for it.
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Bob--- Age and deceit will overcome youth and speed.
I'm old and deceitful.
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Bob--- Age and deceit will overcome youth and speed.
I'm old and deceitful.
DialONE911
New member
Once there is a national ID card, it, not you possess whatever "rights" the Feds decide to give you.
Without it, you become a non person who can't drive, get a passport, get credit, register a deed...
With it, the government can and will track everything you buy, where you live, what you own, where you travel.
It will become an internal passport like the communist bloc used to control its subjects.
Without it, you become a non person who can't drive, get a passport, get credit, register a deed...
With it, the government can and will track everything you buy, where you live, what you own, where you travel.
It will become an internal passport like the communist bloc used to control its subjects.
Has the rotten smell of Nazi to it.
Already have a Social Security Number that's being used for everything but what it was intended. Wait maybe the feds will want that tatooed to your hide after the photo IDS
They can shove it
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We preserve our freedoms by using four boxes: soap,ballot,jury, and cartridge.
Anonymous
Already have a Social Security Number that's being used for everything but what it was intended. Wait maybe the feds will want that tatooed to your hide after the photo IDS
They can shove it
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We preserve our freedoms by using four boxes: soap,ballot,jury, and cartridge.
Anonymous
So with this they could track everything I do, everywhere I go, and everything I buy. They could with the help of little brother do some of that already. I have this little card that I use at the grocery store. It tells the company everything I buy. Every once and a while it will let me know via a coupon it spits out that I have not purchased a certain item for a while and will offer me a deal on it. If some one wanted to go to all the trouble they could find out everything about me. Even the GSSF gets your SS#, it's the law you know. So they know everything about me, if you have nothing to hide then why not? It would help in weeding out criminals, a person who was wanted for anything could be found in a matter of days. If they could not produce an ID then they could be summarily arrested till we could find out who they are. Then put them in jail for whatever it is they did.
I am not trying to be antagonistic, and I don't mind getting told what is what. As a matter of fact that is why I am asking. If some one asks me why I don't want a Fed ID and I give them the reasons you have posted they look at me as if I am an idiot. All they see is that It would help the good guys track the bad guys. In other words you have to be a bad guy to not want it. So please tell me how it will effect a regular person who really does behave in the way the gubmit wants them to behave. A national ID will in fact have no real effect what so ever on the great masses, it will actually be a benefit to them. It will allow them to get deals on products and services the world over. Most folks won't care and will see the obvious benefits of having a card.
I want to recap my thinking here, I have three main questions.
1. If I have noting to hide then why not?
2. What negative effect will a Federal ID have on a person that behaves in the way the government wants them to behave?
3. What can we point to and say that is why I don't want a national ID card? In other word what will the sheep object to?
[This message has been edited by L-Frame (edited September 26, 2000).]
I am not trying to be antagonistic, and I don't mind getting told what is what. As a matter of fact that is why I am asking. If some one asks me why I don't want a Fed ID and I give them the reasons you have posted they look at me as if I am an idiot. All they see is that It would help the good guys track the bad guys. In other words you have to be a bad guy to not want it. So please tell me how it will effect a regular person who really does behave in the way the gubmit wants them to behave. A national ID will in fact have no real effect what so ever on the great masses, it will actually be a benefit to them. It will allow them to get deals on products and services the world over. Most folks won't care and will see the obvious benefits of having a card.
I want to recap my thinking here, I have three main questions.
1. If I have noting to hide then why not?
2. What negative effect will a Federal ID have on a person that behaves in the way the government wants them to behave?
3. What can we point to and say that is why I don't want a national ID card? In other word what will the sheep object to?
[This message has been edited by L-Frame (edited September 26, 2000).]
Nightcrawler
New member
Well, you make some interesting points. I suppose allowing police to enter people's homes without warrants and the abolishion of juries would speed up the legal process. I mean hey, if you're a law abiding citizen, you've got nothing to worry about, right? You see where I'm going here? Imagine if the federal government agents came into your home when you weren't there, copied the hard drive on your computer, copied your phone messages, went through your things, and left, and never even told you about it. I mean hey, if you're a criminal, you've got nothing to hide, right? So why NOT have the police come on in whenever they want? That's what they can basically do in Canada.
The problem is, when you give the government that much authority over people's lives, eventually, they're going to abuse it. Some people seem to think that our government is made up of a exquisite system of checks and balances so that they can do no wrong, or never overstep their bounds. The truth of the matter is, the government is made up of people. People with problems, people who have different beliefs and values than you, people you didn't vote for, people who think you're a criminal for wanting to own a gun, and so on. Giving people like that complete authority over your life is dangerous. Sooner or later it will come back to haunt you.
The problem is, when you give the government that much authority over people's lives, eventually, they're going to abuse it. Some people seem to think that our government is made up of a exquisite system of checks and balances so that they can do no wrong, or never overstep their bounds. The truth of the matter is, the government is made up of people. People with problems, people who have different beliefs and values than you, people you didn't vote for, people who think you're a criminal for wanting to own a gun, and so on. Giving people like that complete authority over your life is dangerous. Sooner or later it will come back to haunt you.
Because having a national ID is like asking the government's permission for EVERYTHING that you do. This is not freedom.
It should be quite the opposite. The government should be ASKING US for permission for everything THEY do... but, somehow in this last century the roles have been reversed.
"A people for the government, by the government and of the government."
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John/az
"When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!
See The Legacy of Gun Control film at: www.cphv.com
Do it for the children...
It should be quite the opposite. The government should be ASKING US for permission for everything THEY do... but, somehow in this last century the roles have been reversed.
"A people for the government, by the government and of the government."
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John/az
"When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!
See The Legacy of Gun Control film at: www.cphv.com
Do it for the children...
"So please tell me how it will effect a regular person who really does behave in the way the gubmit wants them to behave. "
I don't want the gubmit telling me how to behave, and it is none of their business where I am, or what I am buying, etc.
Also, it is true that your bank knows where you spend your money, and your grocery store knows what you eat, but for now, that info in those databases are totally isolated from each other, and the feds don't see any of it.
I don't want the gubmit telling me how to behave, and it is none of their business where I am, or what I am buying, etc.
Also, it is true that your bank knows where you spend your money, and your grocery store knows what you eat, but for now, that info in those databases are totally isolated from each other, and the feds don't see any of it.
1. If I have noting to hide then why not?
A better question is if we have nothing to hide then why should we as law abiding citizens have to have an ID to do something. An ID often ends up being a license. A license turns a right into a privilege. A privilege if granted can later be denied. Here is a little something to think about… 20 years after issuing ID’s, travel between states becomes illegal without showing your ID to cross the boarder. Your traveling between multiple states. At an overnight someone steals your ID.
2. What negative effect will a Federal ID have on a person that behaves in the way the government wants them to behave?
Behave the way that government wants me to behave? Come on here…. Is there no freedom left? Who is anyone to tell me how to behave? As long as I don’t injure another person I have the right and freedom to behave in any manner that I choose. Who is to say that my behavior is right or another persons is wrong? Just because the majority of the people say so? No two people can agree on everything. Who is right and who is wrong? Who has the right to say who is right? This is the problem I have with this type of thinking. A National ID is does nothing to fight crime, it only adds a method whereby the government can excerpt a little more control over people. That is not freedom, that is slavery.
3. What can we point to and say that is why I don't want a national ID card? In other word what will the sheep object to?
You can point to the fact that an ID card can and will be used to either allow or disallow a freedom. No ID card no freedom…. Say they want to protect people in our national parks…. Therefore no one will be admitted without an ID. You’ve now turned a right (to freely travel where and when you want) into a privilege. You are also assumed to be guilty, until you prove you are innocent by presenting your ID card.
Sooner or later you will need a background check in order to obtain a yearly renewable ID card at a cost of $XXX. No ID card no services. Pissed your local guy off who happens to run the center that issues the cards? Guess what, he will find some excuse as to why you can’t be issued one. You won’t be able to get a job without one. You won’t be able to buy anything without one. But hey, you can go back to this jerk, kiss his A**, slip him a few dollars under the table and he might forgive you and give you a card.
Think it can’t happen? Anytime you give someone the power over another it will and does happen.
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Richard
The debate is not about guns,
but rather who has the ultimate power to rule,
the People or Government.
RKBA!
A better question is if we have nothing to hide then why should we as law abiding citizens have to have an ID to do something. An ID often ends up being a license. A license turns a right into a privilege. A privilege if granted can later be denied. Here is a little something to think about… 20 years after issuing ID’s, travel between states becomes illegal without showing your ID to cross the boarder. Your traveling between multiple states. At an overnight someone steals your ID.
2. What negative effect will a Federal ID have on a person that behaves in the way the government wants them to behave?
Behave the way that government wants me to behave? Come on here…. Is there no freedom left? Who is anyone to tell me how to behave? As long as I don’t injure another person I have the right and freedom to behave in any manner that I choose. Who is to say that my behavior is right or another persons is wrong? Just because the majority of the people say so? No two people can agree on everything. Who is right and who is wrong? Who has the right to say who is right? This is the problem I have with this type of thinking. A National ID is does nothing to fight crime, it only adds a method whereby the government can excerpt a little more control over people. That is not freedom, that is slavery.
3. What can we point to and say that is why I don't want a national ID card? In other word what will the sheep object to?
You can point to the fact that an ID card can and will be used to either allow or disallow a freedom. No ID card no freedom…. Say they want to protect people in our national parks…. Therefore no one will be admitted without an ID. You’ve now turned a right (to freely travel where and when you want) into a privilege. You are also assumed to be guilty, until you prove you are innocent by presenting your ID card.
Sooner or later you will need a background check in order to obtain a yearly renewable ID card at a cost of $XXX. No ID card no services. Pissed your local guy off who happens to run the center that issues the cards? Guess what, he will find some excuse as to why you can’t be issued one. You won’t be able to get a job without one. You won’t be able to buy anything without one. But hey, you can go back to this jerk, kiss his A**, slip him a few dollars under the table and he might forgive you and give you a card.
Think it can’t happen? Anytime you give someone the power over another it will and does happen.
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Richard
The debate is not about guns,
but rather who has the ultimate power to rule,
the People or Government.
RKBA!
L-Frame:
I can think of two reasons to vehemently oppose any form of national ID.
1. As a matter of principle. This is supossed to be a nation BY the people, FOR the people, not by the government, for the government. The question should be, why the h*ll SHOULD we submit to our government cataloguing us? Just because our SSN's are often used in this capacity (much to my dismay) is no reason to make it worse. It's like saying, "Gee, you're already wearing those handcuffs, why don't we just put a lo-jack on your ankle and a shock collar around your neck while we're at it. It'll be much more efficient that way."
And not to offend any LEO's out there on TFL, because I have tremendous admiration for you for doing a difficult and often thankless job, but I don't give a wombat s**t for the claim that a national ID will make things easier for the police. First of all, the only place that the police have it easy is a police state. Secondly, this will ultimately not be effictive for the same reason that gun control efforts are doomed to fail at reducing crime... criminals by definition do not adhere to the laws. Forgery, ID theft, fake ID's, oh boy would we be opening up a whole new market for this segment of The Black Market.
2. The "if you're not a criminal, what do you have to worry about?" argument won't work either. If we end up with a national ID system, you can pretty much garuantee that if you're not a criminal now, you will be at some point in the near future. We already have so many conflicting laws on the books that every one of us could probably be found guilty of something. Just look at our current tax code. If we get a national ID, look for this sort of thing to progress. Then we can all look forward to more no-knock raids, blank warrants, asset forfeitures, intimidation, and brutalization.
To sum up, all national identification measures represent another step in the ongoing erosion of our liberties. Where do we draw the line?
I can think of two reasons to vehemently oppose any form of national ID.
1. As a matter of principle. This is supossed to be a nation BY the people, FOR the people, not by the government, for the government. The question should be, why the h*ll SHOULD we submit to our government cataloguing us? Just because our SSN's are often used in this capacity (much to my dismay) is no reason to make it worse. It's like saying, "Gee, you're already wearing those handcuffs, why don't we just put a lo-jack on your ankle and a shock collar around your neck while we're at it. It'll be much more efficient that way."
And not to offend any LEO's out there on TFL, because I have tremendous admiration for you for doing a difficult and often thankless job, but I don't give a wombat s**t for the claim that a national ID will make things easier for the police. First of all, the only place that the police have it easy is a police state. Secondly, this will ultimately not be effictive for the same reason that gun control efforts are doomed to fail at reducing crime... criminals by definition do not adhere to the laws. Forgery, ID theft, fake ID's, oh boy would we be opening up a whole new market for this segment of The Black Market.
2. The "if you're not a criminal, what do you have to worry about?" argument won't work either. If we end up with a national ID system, you can pretty much garuantee that if you're not a criminal now, you will be at some point in the near future. We already have so many conflicting laws on the books that every one of us could probably be found guilty of something. Just look at our current tax code. If we get a national ID, look for this sort of thing to progress. Then we can all look forward to more no-knock raids, blank warrants, asset forfeitures, intimidation, and brutalization.
To sum up, all national identification measures represent another step in the ongoing erosion of our liberties. Where do we draw the line?
All of the above,Any Questions?
They can shove it
THEY have to realize that THEY are OUR elected EMPLOYEES. THEY work for US, Not US for THEM. I remind them of that everytime I write one of them,My elected employees
Everything I do,and own is on a need to know basis, And they don't need to know!
For the Children, Yeah Right
They can Shove it
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We preserve our freedoms by using four boxes: soap,ballot,jury, and cartridge.
Anonymous
[This message has been edited by loknload (edited September 26, 2000).]
They can shove it
THEY have to realize that THEY are OUR elected EMPLOYEES. THEY work for US, Not US for THEM. I remind them of that everytime I write one of them,My elected employees
Everything I do,and own is on a need to know basis, And they don't need to know!
For the Children, Yeah Right
They can Shove it
------------------
We preserve our freedoms by using four boxes: soap,ballot,jury, and cartridge.
Anonymous
[This message has been edited by loknload (edited September 26, 2000).]
I have a part time job at a pawn shop, exclusively in the gun dept.
I had a guy yesterday tell me, when he was in the Navy, and in California, he bought a new in the box Berretta 9mm.
It had no serial numbers of any kind, came with two loaded mags-all for $200.
He said he kept it with him until he left the Navy, and then sold it for $50.
He bought it when he was 18.
When someone buys a gun from us, we make them jump thru hoops with all the regulations.
A card will do absolutely nothing to stop crime or dirtballs, who know better, from getting guns.
We are in for some bad times ahead.
I had a guy yesterday tell me, when he was in the Navy, and in California, he bought a new in the box Berretta 9mm.
It had no serial numbers of any kind, came with two loaded mags-all for $200.
He said he kept it with him until he left the Navy, and then sold it for $50.
He bought it when he was 18.
When someone buys a gun from us, we make them jump thru hoops with all the regulations.
A card will do absolutely nothing to stop crime or dirtballs, who know better, from getting guns.
We are in for some bad times ahead.
KAM_Indianapolis
New member
To turn the question around:
What would we gain by having a national ID card? What benefit is it to us?
If I go to a foreign country I get a passport. I don't need any form of ID to travel anywhere in the US.
What would we gain by having a national ID card? What benefit is it to us?
If I go to a foreign country I get a passport. I don't need any form of ID to travel anywhere in the US.
One of our larger video store chains HOLLYWOOD'S you may have heard them has stopped using video cards.
Now they simply use your drivers license for all your video rentals.
So I have to have a state issued ID to be able to rent a video???
What happens if I lose it?
Each time I have to assume their either running my DL number or my social and making the sure the info on it is correct including the address sort of an unannounced valid ID check.I dont like that I dont like anyone being able to check where I live that isnt delivering ammo or helping me move out.
Is someone here insane this is a country where police have been allowed to confiscate weapons on the accusation of one person that you are disturbed or a public nuisance.
A child and a woman were killed by a government trained agent and the begreived citizen was given around 3 million dollars and a felony record.
He will never be able to 'legally' own another firearm all because he dared to cut shotgun barrle a bit too short.
Remembering items like that might make you ask yourself why we werent question or overthrowing this facist government a long time ago.
If you have open eyes and watch how they vote your not fooled by their the pathetic smokescreen that the republicans are here to protect us and only the democrats are socialist their all power hungry men because
at this time and for a long time now theirs been very little we could do to stop them from taking it.
Maybe your National ID will have a red background that shows your firearms owner maybe such subspecies wont be allowed to go in certain places or will be held up longer when pulled over for 'regular traffic stops'
to be searched to make sure your not carrying a firearm into the national forest nearby or that its not an illegal firearm
(whatever that means).
L-frame have you never heard this is a country where the national police that you pay the FBI have taught police chiefs across the country (project mageido) your local police that are supposed to protect you ( to a bloody pulp if you get in their way)
to view constitutionalists,christians and gunowners as extremists who are if anyone the most likely to attempt to overthrow the governement not to mention be the ones behind something like what the uni-bomber did.
(never mind the fact theyve given us more than enough reason to do so)
Are you a middle class citizen that will be cleared to most areas or an upper (rich, connected) class citizen that wont be detained long at police checks and airports.
What might be on your National ID to identify you and will your identification number be printed on your the back of your hand or your forehead.
Will an alarm go off every time you swipe or show your ID at a store that serves alchohol because it shows you are a gunowner or that youve been issued a state carry permit.
When certain firearms need to be collected for the safety of the community and to cut down on firearms trafficking world wide under the new treaties weve signed to end gun violence in agreement with the UN just think how much more quickly theyll be able to find you.
Are we having fun yet.
My biggest problem with China bombing us is that theyll likely hit everything EXCEPT the biggest source of crimes in america
WASHINGTON DC.
And dont forget to put your seatbelt on its
the LAW.
How much should we charge for such a valuable thing as a national ID.
------------------
"those who sacrifice
liberty for security deserve neither"
Now they simply use your drivers license for all your video rentals.
So I have to have a state issued ID to be able to rent a video???
What happens if I lose it?
Each time I have to assume their either running my DL number or my social and making the sure the info on it is correct including the address sort of an unannounced valid ID check.I dont like that I dont like anyone being able to check where I live that isnt delivering ammo or helping me move out.
Is someone here insane this is a country where police have been allowed to confiscate weapons on the accusation of one person that you are disturbed or a public nuisance.
A child and a woman were killed by a government trained agent and the begreived citizen was given around 3 million dollars and a felony record.
He will never be able to 'legally' own another firearm all because he dared to cut shotgun barrle a bit too short.
Remembering items like that might make you ask yourself why we werent question or overthrowing this facist government a long time ago.
If you have open eyes and watch how they vote your not fooled by their the pathetic smokescreen that the republicans are here to protect us and only the democrats are socialist their all power hungry men because
at this time and for a long time now theirs been very little we could do to stop them from taking it.
Maybe your National ID will have a red background that shows your firearms owner maybe such subspecies wont be allowed to go in certain places or will be held up longer when pulled over for 'regular traffic stops'
to be searched to make sure your not carrying a firearm into the national forest nearby or that its not an illegal firearm
(whatever that means).
L-frame have you never heard this is a country where the national police that you pay the FBI have taught police chiefs across the country (project mageido) your local police that are supposed to protect you ( to a bloody pulp if you get in their way)
to view constitutionalists,christians and gunowners as extremists who are if anyone the most likely to attempt to overthrow the governement not to mention be the ones behind something like what the uni-bomber did.
(never mind the fact theyve given us more than enough reason to do so)
Are you a middle class citizen that will be cleared to most areas or an upper (rich, connected) class citizen that wont be detained long at police checks and airports.
What might be on your National ID to identify you and will your identification number be printed on your the back of your hand or your forehead.
Will an alarm go off every time you swipe or show your ID at a store that serves alchohol because it shows you are a gunowner or that youve been issued a state carry permit.
When certain firearms need to be collected for the safety of the community and to cut down on firearms trafficking world wide under the new treaties weve signed to end gun violence in agreement with the UN just think how much more quickly theyll be able to find you.
Are we having fun yet.
My biggest problem with China bombing us is that theyll likely hit everything EXCEPT the biggest source of crimes in america
WASHINGTON DC.
And dont forget to put your seatbelt on its
the LAW.
How much should we charge for such a valuable thing as a national ID.
------------------
"those who sacrifice
liberty for security deserve neither"
"He required everyone – great and small, rich and poor, slave and free – to be given a mark on the right hand or on the forehead. And no one could buy or sell anything without that mark, which was either the name of the beast or the number representing his name. Wisdom is needed to understand this. Let the one who has understanding solve the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man. His number is 666. "
Revealation 13:16-18
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Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God.
1 Peter 2:16.
Revealation 13:16-18
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Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God.
1 Peter 2:16.
What DorGunR said.
This question shows a complete lack of understanding of the basic concept of freedom.
The question is also typical, today. Our public school teachers must be very proud. Today we will even help to put the shackles on.
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Brady
(No relation to that $%#$ bill)
This question shows a complete lack of understanding of the basic concept of freedom.
The question is also typical, today. Our public school teachers must be very proud. Today we will even help to put the shackles on.
------------------
Brady
(No relation to that $%#$ bill)
Trouble said:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>2. The "if you're not a criminal, what do you have to worry about?" argument won't work either. If we end up with a national ID system, you can pretty much garuantee that if you're not a criminal now, you will be at some point in the near future. [/quote]
That is exactly the reason why, in the future you will either submit to tyranny, testify against your friends and submit to anything our self proclaimed masters tell us to or you will be a criminal. Why make it easier for them ? The national ID card is just another link in the chain they are wrapping around our ankles. I also agree with what RH said, we are closing in on that scene at a very high rate of speed.
[This message has been edited by scud (edited September 26, 2000).]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>2. The "if you're not a criminal, what do you have to worry about?" argument won't work either. If we end up with a national ID system, you can pretty much garuantee that if you're not a criminal now, you will be at some point in the near future. [/quote]
That is exactly the reason why, in the future you will either submit to tyranny, testify against your friends and submit to anything our self proclaimed masters tell us to or you will be a criminal. Why make it easier for them ? The national ID card is just another link in the chain they are wrapping around our ankles. I also agree with what RH said, we are closing in on that scene at a very high rate of speed.
[This message has been edited by scud (edited September 26, 2000).]