Federal Gold Medal Match .308
- Thread starter _YoYo_
- Start date
Reloading..........Steve
Steve, no problem...............
Everybody has different criterion for what the use, and the components, and the tools, and the powders, and all the other stuff that goes along with the sport.
Me, I wouldn't think of using an IMI standard case, nor would I use IMR 4895..........
As for my statements on the cost of reloading......it is a lot more expensive than "MOST", folks think....cause the more you do it, the more refined you will want to get, and this means more tools, and specialty items.
You want ammo that will hold sub 1/3moa @ 500 yards?...you ain't gonna get it stuffing second class components into a mil spec battle case, and you ain't gonna get it, by inside reaming with a standard de chamfering tool...
You wind up scratching the heel of your bullet, and the brass is not concentric, and a host of other variables........too numerous to list.
Good shooting, yes maybe, the BEST it can be...no.
I agree with you about the hobby, relaxation part....I reload hundreds of rounds a month, and shoot at ranges most on here only get to dream about.
All in all, we are in total agreement, and no harm no foul.........
I just like to let beginners KNOW what to expect...no one was around to help me out when I started Precision rifle reloading........
It's a whole new world, compared to handguns.
If your just punchin paper @ a 100 yard range, then a lot of what I have said D N A.........
If you want truly superior ammo, you gotta get the best components available, and create a masterpiece one at a time..........
It is VERY tough to beat the accuracy of Fed GM, and or Black Hills ammo..........( factory offerings, have come a long way).
Many have tried over the years, and a few suceed....
If it's easy for you, you are special.......
Reloading, is not really a hobby, it is a way of life...once bitten...your HAD!!!!.
I fully agree, if you take the case out of the equation, then you can load quality ammo for 50% less than factory offerings...
But, as I said,how much do you shoot???.
It takes a while to recoup the costs of all the items you need........
And a lot of folks make a bad mistake, on the front end.....and wind up having to re purchase most everthing all over again..........this was really the jist of what I was alluding to..........caveat emptor!!!!!
As always, just my H O, and for what it's worth..........
Steve, no problem...............
Everybody has different criterion for what the use, and the components, and the tools, and the powders, and all the other stuff that goes along with the sport.
Me, I wouldn't think of using an IMI standard case, nor would I use IMR 4895..........
As for my statements on the cost of reloading......it is a lot more expensive than "MOST", folks think....cause the more you do it, the more refined you will want to get, and this means more tools, and specialty items.
You want ammo that will hold sub 1/3moa @ 500 yards?...you ain't gonna get it stuffing second class components into a mil spec battle case, and you ain't gonna get it, by inside reaming with a standard de chamfering tool...
You wind up scratching the heel of your bullet, and the brass is not concentric, and a host of other variables........too numerous to list.
Good shooting, yes maybe, the BEST it can be...no.
I agree with you about the hobby, relaxation part....I reload hundreds of rounds a month, and shoot at ranges most on here only get to dream about.
All in all, we are in total agreement, and no harm no foul.........
I just like to let beginners KNOW what to expect...no one was around to help me out when I started Precision rifle reloading........
It's a whole new world, compared to handguns.
If your just punchin paper @ a 100 yard range, then a lot of what I have said D N A.........
If you want truly superior ammo, you gotta get the best components available, and create a masterpiece one at a time..........
It is VERY tough to beat the accuracy of Fed GM, and or Black Hills ammo..........( factory offerings, have come a long way).
Many have tried over the years, and a few suceed....
If it's easy for you, you are special.......
Reloading, is not really a hobby, it is a way of life...once bitten...your HAD!!!!.
I fully agree, if you take the case out of the equation, then you can load quality ammo for 50% less than factory offerings...
But, as I said,how much do you shoot???.
It takes a while to recoup the costs of all the items you need........
And a lot of folks make a bad mistake, on the front end.....and wind up having to re purchase most everthing all over again..........this was really the jist of what I was alluding to..........caveat emptor!!!!!
As always, just my H O, and for what it's worth..........
K
KilgorII
Guest
YoYo
We're pretty close. I'm in Fayetteville, AR just across the line. I can give you a little advise on where to get components for cheap around here.
Have you been to the BIG gun show in Tulsa yet? They have it 2X a year at the Expo Center. 11 acres of tables under ONE roof (about 3,900 tables IIRC). Prices on bullets and powder (especially powder) are usually very good. Go to http://www.tulsagunshow.com for more info. The next one is in April.
For full length resizing and loading high quality ammo, I'd get a single stage RCBS Rock Chuker for ~$100 and a good powder trickler (<--that spelled right?) with a digital scale.
The suggestion of the Midway calipers is right on. They work well.
Go to http://www.midwayusa.com and get on their mailing list to get their catalogue. It comes out once a month and they deliver orders fast.
I would detail everything you need, but it seems others have pretty well done that. I don't remember seeing a vibratory case cleaner up there though. Midway makes a decent one.
KilgorII
We're pretty close. I'm in Fayetteville, AR just across the line. I can give you a little advise on where to get components for cheap around here.
Have you been to the BIG gun show in Tulsa yet? They have it 2X a year at the Expo Center. 11 acres of tables under ONE roof (about 3,900 tables IIRC). Prices on bullets and powder (especially powder) are usually very good. Go to http://www.tulsagunshow.com for more info. The next one is in April.
For full length resizing and loading high quality ammo, I'd get a single stage RCBS Rock Chuker for ~$100 and a good powder trickler (<--that spelled right?) with a digital scale.
The suggestion of the Midway calipers is right on. They work well.
Go to http://www.midwayusa.com and get on their mailing list to get their catalogue. It comes out once a month and they deliver orders fast.
I would detail everything you need, but it seems others have pretty well done that. I don't remember seeing a vibratory case cleaner up there though. Midway makes a decent one.
KilgorII
K
KilgorII
Guest
BTW
IMR 4895 works very well for me. It and Varget are my prefered powders in .308 win.
IMR 4895 works very well for me. It and Varget are my prefered powders in .308 win.
Steve Smith
New member
Just about every DCM guy in our local group is using 4895 for his Garand or M1A/M14...including me... I just joined up with them, so I don't meant to sound like I've been shooting with them for ages...however, I've been able to test my loads out to 400 yds so far with EXCELLENT results. Also, the IMI cases are commercial, not "battle" cases...in fact, IMI calls them "Match" but I still segregate them by weight, as they do vary a bit. I admit, I will be using Lapua for my actual match cases. they run $33 per 100 from Sinclair. Again, _YO_YO_ never said he wanted to compete...but he obviously wants to shoot good ammo, and a lot of it. Reloading is the obvious choice.
Of course deburring won't turn necks...that's not what I meant. The deburr tool is a deburr tool...that's it. The trimmer in the kit I specced out can be fitted with real inside and outside neck turning attachments and can complete that step.
Do you think that Federal neck turns cases? Nope. They don't have to worry about it, as their cases are, as far as they're concerned, only shot once. They don't have to worry about brass flow, tight outside and inside dimensions and such. The stuff will fit into anyone's chamber, the powder charge is more consistent, and they're using better bullets and primers. Sure it's more accurate than plain 'ol Federal, but I've seen several rifles that didn't show a liking for FGM at all, but responded well with reloads.
Even if you start with a used single stage, and throw $1000 into match reloading equipment, you'll pay for your equipment in 3000 cartridges at the least, and 5000 cartridges at the most. That will leave you with equipment that will probably last a lifetime, and the rest of the savings go into your pocket, or more correctly, into more shooting.
_YO_YO_ yes, there are some substantial start-up costs, but if you buy good equipment to start with, you'll have the stuff forever. It won't take too long to recoup the investment, and then you're really "in the clover." IMHO, relaoding has been worth every minute. Looking at reloading reom your side is like looking through a one-way mirror...you don't see the other side. We reloaders look back to your side and say to ourselves, "Why didn't I start earlier?"
Obviously Tshoes has had an uphill battle with reloading...maybe I've been lucky, or had good teachers. He brings a lot of good points. consider what he's said. My range is 5 minutes from my house...I can work up loads, run to the range, shoot 'em, run back and do some more quite easily. Others cannot do this. Maybe I'm a total loser and I reload too much...but my wife doesn't complain, so I guess it's ok. Only you can make this decision for yourself...get some more inputs...I'll shut up now.
Of course deburring won't turn necks...that's not what I meant. The deburr tool is a deburr tool...that's it. The trimmer in the kit I specced out can be fitted with real inside and outside neck turning attachments and can complete that step.
Do you think that Federal neck turns cases? Nope. They don't have to worry about it, as their cases are, as far as they're concerned, only shot once. They don't have to worry about brass flow, tight outside and inside dimensions and such. The stuff will fit into anyone's chamber, the powder charge is more consistent, and they're using better bullets and primers. Sure it's more accurate than plain 'ol Federal, but I've seen several rifles that didn't show a liking for FGM at all, but responded well with reloads.
Even if you start with a used single stage, and throw $1000 into match reloading equipment, you'll pay for your equipment in 3000 cartridges at the least, and 5000 cartridges at the most. That will leave you with equipment that will probably last a lifetime, and the rest of the savings go into your pocket, or more correctly, into more shooting.
_YO_YO_ yes, there are some substantial start-up costs, but if you buy good equipment to start with, you'll have the stuff forever. It won't take too long to recoup the investment, and then you're really "in the clover." IMHO, relaoding has been worth every minute. Looking at reloading reom your side is like looking through a one-way mirror...you don't see the other side. We reloaders look back to your side and say to ourselves, "Why didn't I start earlier?"
Obviously Tshoes has had an uphill battle with reloading...maybe I've been lucky, or had good teachers. He brings a lot of good points. consider what he's said. My range is 5 minutes from my house...I can work up loads, run to the range, shoot 'em, run back and do some more quite easily. Others cannot do this. Maybe I'm a total loser and I reload too much...but my wife doesn't complain, so I guess it's ok. Only you can make this decision for yourself...get some more inputs...I'll shut up now.
Let me clarify.
I want to clarify what Tshoes is say for us all. As any reloader knows, there are many factors that effect the quality of a reload. There is so much information out there on what type of brass to use, the primers, powder, trim length, bullet seating depth, cleaning the flash hole, and the list goes on and on.
To the tell you the truth when I think about all of the really intricate parts of reloading and how it all has an effect on accuracy, it scares me! Why? Because it makes me feel that I will never be able to get a good load made because there are so many factors and so little time.
Then I realize that I really don't care that much. I am happy shooting 1000 yard matches and getting a 385-10x from a stock Rem 700 VS. I am happy when I shoot a 1.2 moa group out of the same gun at 100 yards. I am happy when I shoot at 4 coyotes that day and five of them die because I know the 125 Speer TNT HP's are performing as they are supposed too (and mad I screwed up the other shot).
My point is for the type of shooting I do, the money I have spent to get a Dillon and all the little parts is well worth the investment. That is as far as I wish to go right now.
TShoes and I are different. TShoes has taken on the task of producing the most perfect ammo he can. And in order to do so, he must spend hours trying to do everything just right. He must invest in some very quality components that cost money. There is nothing wrong with this if you enjoy it. For me, it is too much of a headache and with my stock Rem 700 and M1A, I am never going to have a gun that will match the performance of that ammo.
So in order to reach the very high level of reloading that TShoes has reached, it is going to take years! It is going to be very laborous and costly. El Rojo, Steve, and Kilgore just don't seem to be at the level TShoes is trying to obtain. And that is fine.
Yo Yo, you sound like me. You enjoy shooting and you want to shoot the best ammo you can. If you are under 50 years of age, it is very important that you get into reloading now! The sooner you do, the more money you are going to save. And if someday you want to reach the levels TShoes is at, you are going to have to have a reloader. Every way is pointing towards a reloader. Buy that case of match .308 now. It will take you a little while to use it. Start investing into reloading now. Get the basics now and then build up as you can. I just went balls out to start and spent like over $2000 to start. I will never regret that move and I view that first $2000-$3000 as a life time investment. It is going to be paying off for the rest of my life.
I want to clarify what Tshoes is say for us all. As any reloader knows, there are many factors that effect the quality of a reload. There is so much information out there on what type of brass to use, the primers, powder, trim length, bullet seating depth, cleaning the flash hole, and the list goes on and on.
To the tell you the truth when I think about all of the really intricate parts of reloading and how it all has an effect on accuracy, it scares me! Why? Because it makes me feel that I will never be able to get a good load made because there are so many factors and so little time.
Then I realize that I really don't care that much. I am happy shooting 1000 yard matches and getting a 385-10x from a stock Rem 700 VS. I am happy when I shoot a 1.2 moa group out of the same gun at 100 yards. I am happy when I shoot at 4 coyotes that day and five of them die because I know the 125 Speer TNT HP's are performing as they are supposed too (and mad I screwed up the other shot).
My point is for the type of shooting I do, the money I have spent to get a Dillon and all the little parts is well worth the investment. That is as far as I wish to go right now.
TShoes and I are different. TShoes has taken on the task of producing the most perfect ammo he can. And in order to do so, he must spend hours trying to do everything just right. He must invest in some very quality components that cost money. There is nothing wrong with this if you enjoy it. For me, it is too much of a headache and with my stock Rem 700 and M1A, I am never going to have a gun that will match the performance of that ammo.
So in order to reach the very high level of reloading that TShoes has reached, it is going to take years! It is going to be very laborous and costly. El Rojo, Steve, and Kilgore just don't seem to be at the level TShoes is trying to obtain. And that is fine.
Yo Yo, you sound like me. You enjoy shooting and you want to shoot the best ammo you can. If you are under 50 years of age, it is very important that you get into reloading now! The sooner you do, the more money you are going to save. And if someday you want to reach the levels TShoes is at, you are going to have to have a reloader. Every way is pointing towards a reloader. Buy that case of match .308 now. It will take you a little while to use it. Start investing into reloading now. Get the basics now and then build up as you can. I just went balls out to start and spent like over $2000 to start. I will never regret that move and I view that first $2000-$3000 as a life time investment. It is going to be paying off for the rest of my life.
Steve Smith
New member
Wow...sometimes you just need someone else to say it for you...thanks, El Rojo! You're absolutely right...sub MOA is not necessary to win DCM matches, "Rifleman" matches, or any "tactical" (hate that word!) type of match...Sub MOA is very important to the benchrest crowd. Sounds like Tshoes is probably the later...right Tshoes? _YO_YO_, if you're interested in shooting benchrest, then there's no way but reloading...it's a must because of the top-level performance requirements. If you just want to shoot good ammo and lots of it, then reloading will allow you to do that. El Rojo and I are only trying to help you save money so you can shoot more. He's also right in that if you're young, the payoffs will be greater.
Hang on, I though I said I'd shut up...sorry! I HAD to thank El Rojo for saying what I couldn't think to say.
Hang on, I though I said I'd shut up...sorry! I HAD to thank El Rojo for saying what I couldn't think to say.
Steve.....communications gap
Steve,
as is usually the case, when reading the written word, there is always some misunderstanding/s.
For example, you did not specify you were shooting M1A's...with 4895.....that is a good choice for the service rifle.....
Also, if you are using IMI with "Match", on the headstamp, you are correct, it's not "battle", ammo..it's good stuff.....
As a matter of fact, in order of concentricity, and uniformity, it ranks at very near the top of the food chain....only a tad low on the powder capacity side, which is fine.
I have used this brass to shoot sub 1/3rd moa @ 500 yards..
In my humble opinion, and based on NECO gages, these are the best available cases around.........and in this order.
Lapua, #1, Norma #2, Win #3, IMI MATCH tied w/ Win for # 3.
Secondly, I was not refering to "neck turning".
Inside chamfering is exactly what I meant.......
Since you are shooting service rifles to 600 yards max (usually), the steps and procedures associated with absolute extreme accuracy do not apply.
When it comes down to it, we haven't been talking "Apples & Apples'.
Bolt gun accuracy, v.s. Service rifle accuracy is a whole new ball game........
If you haven't been BOTH places yet, you will soon find out.
Service rifle accuracy, esp the M1A, is at best in the .5moa range for a really good one.......
This is where good bolt gun's START.............
Again, no harm, no foul...thanks for your input.......
Any day, I don't learn SOMETHING, is a day I figure I've taken the ultimate dirt nap!!!!!!
Steve,
as is usually the case, when reading the written word, there is always some misunderstanding/s.
For example, you did not specify you were shooting M1A's...with 4895.....that is a good choice for the service rifle.....
Also, if you are using IMI with "Match", on the headstamp, you are correct, it's not "battle", ammo..it's good stuff.....
As a matter of fact, in order of concentricity, and uniformity, it ranks at very near the top of the food chain....only a tad low on the powder capacity side, which is fine.
I have used this brass to shoot sub 1/3rd moa @ 500 yards..
In my humble opinion, and based on NECO gages, these are the best available cases around.........and in this order.
Lapua, #1, Norma #2, Win #3, IMI MATCH tied w/ Win for # 3.
Secondly, I was not refering to "neck turning".
Inside chamfering is exactly what I meant.......
Since you are shooting service rifles to 600 yards max (usually), the steps and procedures associated with absolute extreme accuracy do not apply.
When it comes down to it, we haven't been talking "Apples & Apples'.
Bolt gun accuracy, v.s. Service rifle accuracy is a whole new ball game........
If you haven't been BOTH places yet, you will soon find out.
Service rifle accuracy, esp the M1A, is at best in the .5moa range for a really good one.......
This is where good bolt gun's START.............
Again, no harm, no foul...thanks for your input.......
Any day, I don't learn SOMETHING, is a day I figure I've taken the ultimate dirt nap!!!!!!
I am in about the same boat as El Rojo. I love to shoot and am not as concerned with the extreme distance accuracy. I am almost 27 and started reloading 5 years ago. I shoot a Rem 700 FVSS in 308. I just went from a 3-10X40 scope to a 6-24X44 and my group at 100yds went from 1-1.5moa to 1/4-1/2 moa with the same ammo. This is from the bench with sand bags, but is is noce to know that if you can see the target better, you can shoot better. I was concerned that my loads were not that good or that it could be the gun. I decided to go with the high power scope and see if that made a difference, you would not believe how happy I was when I sighted it in at 100yds and had 5 of 6 shots in 1 nice hole less than 1/2".
Some of the loads these others are developing took alot of time and money, I use a rock chucker master kit I bought when I got started. The only extras I have gotten are: a hand primer, digital calipers, bullet puller (a Must), and a poweder stand. I use standard RCBS dies and wiegh every powder charge. I only trim cases after a few loadings, and this works well for me. I get the powder charges to within 1/10th of a grain (that is all the scale does), COL within .003 for a box, and now I know that they shhot well at stander yardages.
I forgot to mention, I use 42gr of IMR 4064, 168gr BTHP Moly by hornady, and my COL is 2.800. I have not yet tried to seat the bullet right off the lands and I still get very good accuracy. I am also learning to shoot better by pulling the trigger more consistantly with the 24X scope. The target can sure move ALOT with that power if you are not steady.
Hope some of this may help.
ChrisW
Some of the loads these others are developing took alot of time and money, I use a rock chucker master kit I bought when I got started. The only extras I have gotten are: a hand primer, digital calipers, bullet puller (a Must), and a poweder stand. I use standard RCBS dies and wiegh every powder charge. I only trim cases after a few loadings, and this works well for me. I get the powder charges to within 1/10th of a grain (that is all the scale does), COL within .003 for a box, and now I know that they shhot well at stander yardages.
I forgot to mention, I use 42gr of IMR 4064, 168gr BTHP Moly by hornady, and my COL is 2.800. I have not yet tried to seat the bullet right off the lands and I still get very good accuracy. I am also learning to shoot better by pulling the trigger more consistantly with the 24X scope. The target can sure move ALOT with that power if you are not steady.
Hope some of this may help.
ChrisW
Steve Smith
New member
My apologies as well!
So, maybe we should ask _YO_YO_ what HE wants instead of us two bickering like old hens?
So, _YO_YO, what do you want?
(No matter the answer, several of us still will think (and rightfully so) that paying for a company's advertising, middle man mark-up, and a new case every time is still a waste.)
So, maybe we should ask _YO_YO_ what HE wants instead of us two bickering like old hens?
So, _YO_YO, what do you want?
(No matter the answer, several of us still will think (and rightfully so) that paying for a company's advertising, middle man mark-up, and a new case every time is still a waste.)
El Rojo, Steve////////
Didn't see your post's before I had redone mine.........
I am not into bench rest.........
I am into accuracy, and like The Red said, some of us are a tad on the "Perfectionist', side.........
Words of wisdom, from all concerned...........
I do not deserve the accolades given to me, but I thank you anyway...........
Just a shooter, trying to be the best I can be.......
And passing along MY mistakes to others, so they will not go through the expense, and grief of trial and error.....
Thanks
Didn't see your post's before I had redone mine.........
I am not into bench rest.........
I am into accuracy, and like The Red said, some of us are a tad on the "Perfectionist', side.........
Words of wisdom, from all concerned...........
I do not deserve the accolades given to me, but I thank you anyway...........
Just a shooter, trying to be the best I can be.......
And passing along MY mistakes to others, so they will not go through the expense, and grief of trial and error.....
Thanks
I eventually want the long distance accuracy, but right now i am more intersted in the 600 yd. and less ranges until i get some more experience with my rifle and get some more money. I think i will stick with the fed GM for now until i get the money to get the good reloading stuff for long distance accuracy. I thank everyone for their help and i got good opinions from both sides of the fence. BTW i found the previously mentioned company that has 500 round of Fed GM BTHP 168gr. for 324.99 plus $15 shipping, the number is 502-955-5014, and Hoplite is the name of the company if anyone monitoring this thread is interested.
Thanks again fellas.. sure ill have more questions later.
Thanks again fellas.. sure ill have more questions later.